Serene
Slightly disgruntled
Building a wall to stop immigrants entering a country is a good place to start.
Donald Trump - MAGAtwat news and discussion
- Thread starter tim
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breadandcircuse
"The time is always right to do what is right"
Don't forget he has the man with the bigliest brain on the planet this time, Musk
and Daddy Vlad interfering with bomb scares etc. Seriously I'm no conspiracy theorist nut, but something doesn't smell right.
Lord Camomile
Yipchaa!
Is that new?
What should I research to explain why a fascist was elected this time, but not all the other times?
Serene
Slightly disgruntled
Whether or not the actual president was overtly fascist or not, there has always been oppression of blacks and lgbtq people in the US.
Elpenor
a clown’s heart and a mandolin
That would make half the EU fascist
Lord Camomile
Yipchaa!
Oh, sure, again, no dispute from me there.
I just think it would be interesting/useful to consider why it's got this far this time. What conditions led to this outcome? What changed from previous elections?
Aside from anything else, if we simply say "it was always going to happen, nothing could have been done differently to change the outcome"... well, that just feels like there will never be anything we can do, and that's just bloody depressing.
I prefer to l believe that if we figure out how we got here, we might be able to figure out how to get back there.
Which, as you rightly point out, still wasn't great. But surely we'd agree that it's far easier to do the work when not also having to deal with a fasistic head of state/government?
Plus, some of what we learn might also help us getting away from there, too.
Serene
Slightly disgruntled
Off subject, but have you listened to ( I think its called ) Talk Radio on DAB? I have been listening for a week or so at around about 5pm in the evening on the way home from work and I havent ever heard such a program of fascism and hatred before on UK radio. It is genuinely shocking and disturbing. I cant believe they can say the things they say without being pulled.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Over the last few decades, there have been civil rights movements of various kinds that have achieved a large number of significant victories.
While I think the US celebrates itself far too much in this regard (to get rid of racist laws, you need to have racist laws in the first place - bit like the UK celebrating abolishing slavery), it's not a country that has not made progress.
In the US South the Democrats used to be the party of lynching and segregation abd in his younger days Biden was happy to collaborate with them.
"Mr Biden fondly recalled his working relationship after joining the Senate in the 1970s with two southern Democratic senators, Mississippi's James Eastland and Georgia's Herman Talmadge.
Mr Biden, 76, said at a fundraiser in New York City that Talmadge had called him "son" but never "boy", referring to how racist whites addressed black men at the time."
Biden refuses to apologise for working with racist senators
Amid a political firestorm, the top Democrat insists "there's not a racist bone in my body".www.google.com
Former Klansman, Robert Byrd who remained as a Democratic Senator until 2010, so overlapping the Obama Presidency, saying why he no longer supported segregation. Black grandparents have as much right to ask for water as white grandparents, apparently.
Eastland talking to President Johnston about the three civil rights campaigners murdered in Mississippi
Somewhat of an oversimplification, of course. This is quite a good overview of the whole picture:
Fact check: Yes, historians do teach that first Black members of Congress were Republicans
We rate a viral claim on Instagram partly false because it simplifies and misleads about the two political parties' complicated history on race.
www.usatoday.com
Lord Camomile
Yipchaa!
No. I should, or something like it, for exactly the reasons we've been talking about, but sadly I have quite a low tolerance in that context. See also: Question Time.
But yeah, what's discussed on talk radio (small t+r), how, and what isn't, obviously plays a part.
VivaE
Well-Known Member
Why would you continue to listen to it though after the first listen, if the first listen was so hateful?
All you're doing is contributing to the listening figures that keep its fascism and hatred alive.
PTK
Paul Kegan
If everything is something, than nothing is that thing.
If the USA has always been fascist, then Trump is nothing special.
ska invita
back on the other side
Can you elaborate what's on there? Talk radio is a sewer, I appreciate that, but would appreciate more details what you've heard
Serene
Slightly disgruntled
To be brief, they are preaching anti-woke, and basically continually ranting on about anti-immigrants and anything that is fascist. The phone callers are all at it too. I was genuinely shocked, as I havent ever heard anything like it on radio before. It is strong stuff too.
Serene
Slightly disgruntled
I listened to it for a few nights so that I could get a realistic objective impression of what they are doing. And trust me, it is needing to be stopped. It is very strong stuff.
ska invita
back on the other side
Anecdotally everyone i have talked to about politics recently has been saying some shocking shit...
Today, with neighbour (old codger) , i was talking about hastings, i went down to visit friends, him I "used to like it too many immigrants now" --me: errrr immigrants from London?
Chemist: chemists dont make money anymore, all to do with the rebate on medicine - so me, NHS is underfunded right? No, privatise it and stop all this international aid. Indian heritage chemist btw not that makes any difference of course.
Old friend, sound person...oh i love listening to the Telegraph politics podcast it helps me sleep...
Cousin haven't seen in ages, Im so worried about the state of the world - yeah me too! - they're shutting down free speech, trying to change definition of sex! me: oh im worried about the rise of the far right and neofascism - him fascism: it wasn't that bad actually, it was all to do with blah blah bullshit.
Saw my mum yesterday she was complaining about the budget being bad for business! WTF! Where did she get that talking point from. She just watches the tennis channel and BBC
Jesus fucking christ. Ive lost my sister to the alt right twitter rabbit hole over lockdown, dad long gone down there...fuck me. The water is lapping at the door now, hard
Today, with neighbour (old codger) , i was talking about hastings, i went down to visit friends, him I "used to like it too many immigrants now" --me: errrr immigrants from London?
Chemist: chemists dont make money anymore, all to do with the rebate on medicine - so me, NHS is underfunded right? No, privatise it and stop all this international aid. Indian heritage chemist btw not that makes any difference of course.
Old friend, sound person...oh i love listening to the Telegraph politics podcast it helps me sleep...
Cousin haven't seen in ages, Im so worried about the state of the world - yeah me too! - they're shutting down free speech, trying to change definition of sex! me: oh im worried about the rise of the far right and neofascism - him fascism: it wasn't that bad actually, it was all to do with blah blah bullshit.
Saw my mum yesterday she was complaining about the budget being bad for business! WTF! Where did she get that talking point from. She just watches the tennis channel and BBC
Jesus fucking christ. Ive lost my sister to the alt right twitter rabbit hole over lockdown, dad long gone down there...fuck me. The water is lapping at the door now, hard
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I've lost family members down that rabbit hole. It's horrible. 
ska invita
back on the other side
I was at Stanstead last year, duty free, asian-indian woman on the counter - handed over my spirits - her: Oh you speak English! No one speaks English anymore
YOU WORK IN A FUCKING AIRPORT
Of course what it is is that horrible, in her case Essex, antiforinner culture that she has internalised. Tragic shit
YOU WORK IN A FUCKING AIRPORT
Of course what it is is that horrible, in her case Essex, antiforinner culture that she has internalised. Tragic shit
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Need not to fall into that same trap as the r/w, though, by imagining some past that was better than this but never existed. It isn't there. Racism in Britain was way worse in the 70s. In many ways, things have changed for the better.
ska invita
back on the other side
they were changing for the better, I agree, on balance....and in many ways what were out there left ideas 30 years ago are now accepted more widely... but .....theres some deep polarising rot going on right now that is new and shouldnt be dismissed for a moment
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BigMoaner
What A Load of Old Bollocks
in the case of my best mate who i had known since 4, best man at weddings, etc, i just cannot do a material analysis other than it was during covid. he was not educated in the usual sense, but he was always sharp as a knife, reasonable, fair, humble. he was at the time a millionaire or near enough. The usual material/class analysis just falls down for me. he had total material comfort and stability.
thus i blame entirely the rabbit hole. i blame social media companies who have teams of genises working round the clock on how to make their platforms as addictive as possible. the pattern of links he was sending me, the type of links he was sending me, showed a once ordinary middle of the road politicaly chap, taking huge departures from reality. his facebook was a treat - pictures of him at the football, pictures of him with his kids, pictures of him fishing, year after year, then pictures of him at marches holding his fist up, surrounded by the most deranged lunatics that have ever graced politics in my life time. in my more scared moments i kinda scale this out.
thus i blame entirely the rabbit hole. i blame social media companies who have teams of genises working round the clock on how to make their platforms as addictive as possible. the pattern of links he was sending me, the type of links he was sending me, showed a once ordinary middle of the road politicaly chap, taking huge departures from reality. his facebook was a treat - pictures of him at the football, pictures of him with his kids, pictures of him fishing, year after year, then pictures of him at marches holding his fist up, surrounded by the most deranged lunatics that have ever graced politics in my life time. in my more scared moments i kinda scale this out.
BigMoaner
What A Load of Old Bollocks
i think what has happened in more simple terms is that the hard right and far right have got huge traction on a media level - far far beyond the scope of the old model: i.e. the telegraph, the mail, the sun. chuck in economic hardship, destruction of communities, zero hour contracts, home ownership totally beyond reach, and a brutal cost of living crisis without end, and ETC ETC ...then he we are. but, none of that applied to my mate i don't think. he was radicalised, simple as that. there's very little to point to other than the shite he was viewing.
BigMoaner
What A Load of Old Bollocks
Yes. It's important i think, and obvisiouly, to actually pay attention beyond what is happening online. I mean it's weird even saying that. We have made huge progress, and we will probably continue to do so on balance. Those who shout the loudest will always be heard, but we don't hear the people not saying anything.
ska invita
back on the other side
im not even talking about online, i dont come across ugly shit online, my algorithm is a purified bubble
i dont listen to talk radio or whatever else... its in the real world that im worried"We have made huge progress, and we will probably continue to do so on balance." < dont count on it. Crisis in itself is a polarising experience and theres some fuck off crises on the horizon hurtling towards us. The far right see it coming and are ready to reap the benefits. Some of the conspiracy theories put out are precisely based on future crises. Trumps win and post-win actions are a sign of the depth of planning and strategising
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
But all of this treats it as if this was a short term thing, a moment in time, simply a choice between Trump's horrors and a Democratic Party not quite getting it right but giving it a go. Well, yes, of course, it was better to vote for Harris, Trump is a rapist horror and is embracing at the very least a form of fascism. But limiting this to the 2024 Biden and then Harris campaign forgets who the Democrats are and what they have done to bring us to this point. They are a party of institutional elites and neo-liberalism, believing identity politics was a form of centre left politics that would somehow meld an electoral coalition together. They've departed from working class communities and lives. This isn't about what was merely a sub-standard campaign or voter failure. And yes, I'm talking about the leadership of the party (tbh, I don't know much about the internal and local battles in the party).
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Clinton enthusiastically deregulated and shovelled wealth towards the rich. It's a process that's been going on since the 70s in the US, UK, and elsewhere, but it's been more extreme in some places than others. The Democrats have been just as bad as the Republicans in this process. Real wages have gone down over the last 30 years.
This graph is for the US. It is very similar to the graphs of many countries. Decline in Labour's share of wealth ever since the 50s, with steep decline since the late 90s. In the UK, we hit a peak in the 70s and declined from there.
This is the reality of the political economy. The only Democrat (and he's not even a real Democrat) I've heard talk about it is Bernie Sanders.
This graph is for the US. It is very similar to the graphs of many countries. Decline in Labour's share of wealth ever since the 50s, with steep decline since the late 90s. In the UK, we hit a peak in the 70s and declined from there.
This is the reality of the political economy. The only Democrat (and he's not even a real Democrat) I've heard talk about it is Bernie Sanders.
spring-peeper
Well-Known Member
I've lost family members down that rabbit hole. It's horrible.
I rescued my son
ska invita
back on the other side
yeah wasnt 2008 financial collapse on him? ripping up whatever legislation it was that let it happen (i forget the name) eta Glass-Steagall Act
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yes. Not just him, but very much him.
And that steep decline in the share of wages in GDP you see in the 2000s leading up to the crash, while it happened under the Republicans, the conditions for it were established by Clinton.
And he ramped up the mass incarceration of black men.
Clinton was a fucking disaster of a president.
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