Donald Trump - MAGAtwat news and discussion

[Jeff Robinson]

I didn't take that part personally, I don't think he actually thinks I'm a fascist, or as bad as one. At least I hope not.

No, me neither, but I still hate that line of argument

 

[Sue]

Starmer was also pretty quick to speak to him after the 1st assassination attempt and had dinner with him at trump tower when he was in NY for the UN thing.

Is knowing which side your bread's buttered on the same as having a good relationship...?

 

[LDC]

My phone posted early so to expand a bit.

I stopped hoping for a better world a while ago and switched to hoping things would get shit slower, but apparently that was too optimistic as well.

I do get your points here but your position here hasn't worked either, you say it was not acted upon, okay why? Who's fault is that? If you belive it is the fault of people on the left then why are they accountable in a why that Trump voters are not? If it is no one's fault then maybe it is the position that's wrong?

I think there is an unspoken assumption in your position that these people are too stupid to understand things which I think is more extreme than what I said out loud. We hold the left accountable becuase the left are better and smarter.

I don't have a solution, but I am increasingly sceptical of the "understand" approach. Or maybe I'm not maybe what I'm saying is we are not understanding in the right why.

This longer than I meant ot to be and I need to get back to work, and of of course many of us are somewhat fucked of this morning.

Tagging in LDC as I just remembered I'm replying to them but quoting myself

I mean giving up on any radical left change is in some ways (given the state of things) a pretty understandable position, if a very depressing one.

We need to understand the problems and why people act and vote they way they do in order to move forward. Thinking it's just down to them being selfish or just some kind of 'natural bigots' is not going to lead us anywhere.

It's not been 'acted upon' as the state we're in now is the result of decades of problems, not least of a systematic smashing of left wing class power by the State and capitalism, which has been replaced by a myriad of other fragmented dynamics and problems.

Building that power back is what needs to happen, but mostly it'll be building it back from near nothing organisationally, culturally, politically, socially, etc. It's very, very hard work and is something that is only happening on a very minor level, and give the state we're in needs to happen pretty quickly (climate, ecology, global war, etc.). I agree it leaves us in a very difficult place.

 

[A380]

So shaping up for a trade war between China and the EU on one side and the US and Russia on the other. We are going to have to try and tie ourselves to the EU’s coat tails pretty quick or British manufacturing will be wiped out and British Services massively hit. …

 

[brogdale]

Is knowing which side your bread's buttered on the same as having a good relationship...?

Who knows with these psychopaths. I notice that Starmer took Lammy along to the dinner date; that must have gone down well!

 

[Ax^]

Lammy went to Harvard guessing he went over well

 

[brogdale]

Lammy went to Harvard guessing he went over well

Trump will have been made aware what Lammy said about him.

 

[Yugoslav]

Donald Trump wins. Well, looks like we have a more right-wing bourgeois guy compared to the Democrats. Although, I'm gonna say that it is kinda sexist since the only easy way he won is because his opponent was a woman. It tells me that even the Democrats could not upkeep up with Kamala. Who knows, we have seen two women run for presidency and they both failed. Looks like the Democratic Party might as well altogether have been a collaborator with the Republicans cause there just ain't no way that Trump lost to Joe Biden and then won his presidency back against Kamala Harris. This is the same thing we saw in 2016 when he won against Hillary Clinton.

Trump will be known as a man who only won against female opponents in the American history of presidents.

And that says a lot about the Democratic Party being unconsciously sexist as well as the Republican Party too since both probably in secret wanted Trump to win.

 

[tim]

Thoroughly dischuffed with the recent turn of events.

Without wishing to resort to hyperbole, I believe future historians, such as will exist, will be able to pin point today as the start of the final stage of the implosion of human civilisation. I wish I wasn't exaggerating.

Apocalyptic bollocks is just an excuse for inaction.

 

[andysays]

Is knowing which side your bread's buttered on the same as having a good relationship...?

That's a reasonable question, but the same could potentially be said for

Kim, Xi, Erdogan, Orban, Duterte

It might be nice for some people to think that "our" leaders wouldn't have close relationships with an arsehole like Trump, that it's only the obvious baddies that krtek lists, but unfortunately that's never been true.

 

[tim]

Trump will have been made aware what Lammy said about him.

But he won't remember. And even if he does it's no worse than what Vance said about him.

 

[Yugoslav]

Trump defeated Harris like Clinton: So is US sexism to blame - or bad decisions by Democrats on candidates and policy?

The campaign pushed a message of joy, optimism, and hope. Kamala Harris catapulted engagement in Democratic politics again, leading to a surge in fundraising at the grassroots level. It simply wasn't enough.

news.sky.com

 

[tim]

I never did, always look more to France and The Netherlands for that TBF. But probably cos I’m a wanky reformist.

Yes,


Viva Marine Le Pen! Viva Geert Wilders!

 

[krtek a houby]

That's a reasonable question, but the same could potentially be said for



It might be nice for some people to think that "our" leaders wouldn't have close relationships with an arsehole like Trump, that it's only the obvious baddies that krtek lists, but unfortunately that's never been true.

Forgot to include Bin Salman and Netanyahu

 

[LDC]

And once someone has been won over by a far right demagogue? On a one to one basis I might be able to appeal to them, knowing that “there but for the grace of Marx etc”, but I fear that if the only response we can come up with is one to one conversations, we aren’t going to get anywhere..

I mean that brings up questions of organisation that I think are very difficult. I agree it can't be done on a one-to-one personal basis, nor currently given the state of things solely on a disjointed collection of local or workplace groups, so what does that mean for something on a larger scale than that?

 

[tim]

Trump defeated Harris like Clinton: So is US sexism to blame - or bad decisions by Democrats on candidates and policy?

The campaign pushed a message of joy, optimism, and hope. Kamala Harris catapulted engagement in Democratic politics again, leading to a surge in fundraising at the grassroots level. It simply wasn't enough.

news.sky.com

Do you have any cogent contribution to make? Or are you just going to post links to Sky News?

 

[The39thStep]

So shaping up for a trade war between China and the EU on one side and the US and Russia on the other. We are going to have to try and tie ourselves to the EU’s coat tails pretty quick or British manufacturing will be wiped out and British Services massively hit. …

Has anyone else wiped out British manufacturing?

 

[Yugoslav]

Do you have any cogent contribution to make? Or are you just going to post links to Sky News?

Alright, hear me out. There is no possible way that the Democratic Party actually was doing anything to promote Kamala Harris. Like they had a bad choice with Joe Biden and his failure in the first debate, now they couldn't even get Kamala to be the President. They so forth want to claim that they're against all of this but deep down, there is persistent sexism which I believe is also among the Democrats given the general conception on how in most cases a woman running for president will face great challenges even from the party that endorses her.

There is also the notion that men were more likely to vote for Trump than Harris, adding on to the misogyny (because apparently, Biden won since he was a man). Trump easily winning against women means that both Democratic and Republican parties are sexist. Democrats for not actually doing anything worthwhile to convince the male audience to support Kamala as a means of fighting against Trump and the Republican being the usual sexist by reinforcing male supremacy.

Now, before this develops into accusations of "radfem theory", this is not about making men look bad. It's about the general fact that this sexism is visible in the US, especially in politics when you have a literal convicted felon easily win against a woman in the presidential race.

 

[tim]

Alright, hear me out. There is no possible way that the Democratic Party actually was doing anything to promote Kamala Harris. Like they had a bad choice with Joe Biden and his failure in the first debate, now they couldn't even get Kamala to be the President. They so forth want to claim that they're against all of this but deep down, there is persistent sexism which I believe is also among the Democrats given the general conception on how in most cases a woman running for president will face great challenges even from the party that endorses her.

There is also the notion that men were more likely to vote for Trump than Harris, adding on to the misogyny (because apparently, Biden won since he was a man). Trump easily winning against women means that both Democratic and Republican parties are sexist. Democrats for not actually doing anything worthwhile to convince the male audience to support Kamala as a means of fighting against Trump and the Republican being the usual sexist by reinforcing male supremacy.

Now, before this develops into accusations of "radfem theory", this is not about making men look bad. It's about the general fact that this sexism is visible in the US, especially in politics when you have a literal convicted felon easily win against a woman in the presidential race.

Sorry I asked.

 

[Yugoslav]

If they so much wanted Hillary Clinton to win, then how did she lose in an electoral upset? Was it the fact that some Democrat voters may have turned to the Republican side, out of fear that a woman may mess up more than a man would? Biden had 81 million voters when he won against Trump and now these millions of Democrats whom are most likely men, have turned to Trump since Kamala was nominated to run against Trump. Again, cultural sexism. For Trump to have this unlikely victory has to do something with these former Democrat voters, mostly the men. Cause who are them "anti-woke saints" but none other than mostly men? Now you get it?

 

[Yugoslav]

Sorry I asked.

One of the factors, unfortunately a prophecy fulfilled.

U.S. voters say they’re ready for a woman president − but sexist attitudes still go along with opposition to Harris

Eichen is a PhD researcher of political science at the University of Massachusetts Amherst; Rhodes is an associate professor of political science at UMass Amherst. Nteta is a provost professor of political science and director of the UMass Amherst Poll.Since President Joe Biden exited the...

thefulcrum.us

This should be a considerate case study into how and why sexism could also be a key factor to a convicted felon winning the 2024 election.

 

[existentialist]

One of the factors, unfortunately a prophecy fulfilled.

U.S. voters say they’re ready for a woman president − but sexist attitudes still go along with opposition to Harris

Eichen is a PhD researcher of political science at the University of Massachusetts Amherst; Rhodes is an associate professor of political science at UMass Amherst. Nteta is a provost professor of political science and director of the UMass Amherst Poll.Since President Joe Biden exited the...

thefulcrum.us

This should be a considerate case study into how and why sexism could also be a key factor to a convicted felon winning the 2024 election.

Watching you desperately trying to shoehorn this reality into your Marxist-Leninist hall of mirrors mindset reminds me of that Maslow quote - "when all you've got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail".

 

[Dogsauce]

And I blame the left for not getting the message across that politics isn’t just the ballot box, for one thing.

The left struggles to get any message across because they have no amplification. No leftist newspaper barons, no leftist-owned social media channels. Everything is under control of a handful of billionaires who can shape society as they chose.

Google, with it’s promotion of right-wing podcasts and YouTube content is probably more to blame than Musk with his moribund social media channel. How many people get constant recommendations for Peterson, Yaxley-Lennon stuff and other right-wing drivel?

It’s kind of past expecting this to change democratically, the powerful have too tight a grasp on communication and information, and have done for decades before with newspapers, it’s just the medium is so much more powerful now, and with AI developing it’s never going to get better. It’s realistically only going to be solved with bullets, maybe you’d only need a dozen or so to sort this out, and Trumo wouldn’t need to be one of them.

 

[Cloo]

Tell you what though, it'll be fucking hilarious if Trump gets Musk in to slash federal budgets by firing everyone working for government and then can't implement anything because there's no one left to make anything work, just like at Twitter.

And guaranteed, he'll fall out with Musk within a few months as well.

 

[hash tag]

Ha,. A load of Guardian reading fluffy middle class whiners shouting shit slogans outside the US embassy is just gonna look embarrassing.

"Just Stop Oil supporters have sprayed the U.S. embassy in London with orange paint this morning after waking up to Donald Trump's declaration of victory. "

 

[Yugoslav]

Watching you desperately trying to shoehorn this reality into your Marxist-Leninist hall of mirrors mindset reminds me of that Maslow quote - "when all you've got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail".

"The working people are told “If you don’t like the Republicans, vote for the Democrats. If you don’t like the ruling class they represent, shut up!”"

- What Is A Political Party of the “Old Type”?

 

[Yugoslav]

The left struggles to get any message across because they have no amplification. No leftist newspaper barons, no leftist-owned social media channels. Everything is under control of a handful of billionaires who can shape society as they chose.

Google, with it’s promotion of right-wing podcasts and YouTube content is probably more to blame than Musk with his moribund social media channel. How many people get constant recommendations for Peterson, Yaxley-Lennon stuff and other right-wing drivel?

It’s kind of past expecting this to change democratically, the powerful have too tight a grasp on communication and information, and have done for decades before with newspapers, it’s just the medium is so much more powerful now, and with AI developing it’s never going to get better. It’s realistically only going to be solved with bullets, maybe you’d only need a dozen or so to sort this out, and Trumo wouldn’t need to be one of them.

And also, the left is struggling because it does not have working class support because its mainstream amateurs continue to praise the anti-Marxist notion of "individual freedom" which they believe comes from legal reforms and not by revolutionary means. Even then, looking at the history, no American really wanted collective ownership, hence the presence of American liberalism within the American left which has so lost all the meaning to the working class. If you want the message to reach, let it go to the workers first.

 

[Yugoslav]

"Just Stop Oil supporters have sprayed the U.S. embassy in London with orange paint this morning after waking up to Donald Trump's declaration of victory. "

"Just Stop Oil protestors 'accidentally' destroy a painting in the Louvre Museum because of the word "olive oil" brought up to their very ears."

 

[ignatious]

The left struggles to get any message across because they have no amplification.

There is no coherent message to amplify. With Trump and his ilk there is an underlying conservative philosophy that serves the interests of their backers, but their electoral focus is trained on establishing a sort of primal appeal that cuts across multiple demographics. There's a simple message that gets drummed into people. It's a negative and divisive message but it doesn't have to be - plenty of social movements have come from a positive and collectivist approach.

The left, meanwhile, seems to treat elections as an opportunity to show off how clever they are, but people don't want to be lectured and there is obviously widespread 'woke fatigue'. Finding a simple message based around economic inequality instead of a smorgasbord of intersectionality that makes the left vulnerable to attack from all sides (and within) would be a good place to start.

 

[danny la rouge]

I mean that brings up questions of organisation that I think are very difficult. I agree it can't be done on a one-to-one personal basis, nor currently given the state of things solely on a disjointed collection of local or workplace groups, so what does that mean for something on a larger scale than that?

Yeah, that’s what I’m asking. I don’t know.