Do you now support military action against Syria's government?

[Citizen66]

How is a chemical weapon defined? There's plenty of radioactivity left over from the Bunker Busters the US used in Iraq.

 

[free spirit]

Medicins Sans Frontiere haven't been able to confirm chemical weapons were used either and they have a field hospital there.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23827950

It also says it treated 3600 patients with 'neurotoxic symptoms', 365 of whom died, and that this massive influx of patients over such a short space of time 'strongly indicates mass exposure to neurotoxic agents'.

it just hasn't actually been able to properly test the victims to confirm the toxin involved.

Medecins Sans Frontieres says hospitals it supports in Syria treated about 3,600 patients with "neurotoxic symptoms", of whom 355 have died.



The medical charity said the patients had arrived in three hospitals in the Damascus area on 21 August - when opposition activists say chemical attacks were launched against rebels.

But MSF says it cannot "scientifically confirm" the use of chemical weapons.
Both sides in the conflict accuse each other of using them.
MSF says staff at the hospitals described a large number of patients arriving in the space of less than three hours with symptoms including convulsions, dilated pupils and breathing problems.

It said many were treated with atropine, a drug administered to those with "neurotoxic symptoms".

"MSF can neither scientifically confirm the cause of these symptoms nor establish who is responsible for the attack," said MSF Director of Operations Bart Janssens.
But it added that the symptoms, as well as the "massive influx of patients in a short period of time" strongly suggest mass exposure to a neurotoxic agent.

 

[Sam75]

AFAIK the use of Lachrymatory agents in warfare is banned by the same treaties being cited by the US & allies as justification for their bombing. Turkish citizens did die as a result of the use of chemical agents.

Get back to me when the death toll in Turkey reaches 100,000, including hundreds from CWs.

Any attempt at equivalency here is beyond dishonest.

 

[Frumious B.]

SAM networks are a waste of money, they never work.

What about the Tornados in Gulf War 1? And the Turkish Phantom last year?

 

[sunny jim]

Getting scarier in the area......

http://www.eutimes.net/2013/08/puti...e-against-saudi-arabia-if-west-attacks-syria/

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Rumors flying around that Assad has fled to Iran as the Syrian Electronic Army hacks Twitter. Interesting times if true...

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Prince Bandar offered secret oil deal three weeks ago to Russia to stay out of Syria:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...Russia-secret-oil-deal-if-it-drops-Syria.html

 

[elbows]

Getting scarier in the area......

http://www.eutimes.net/2013/08/puti...e-against-saudi-arabia-if-west-attacks-syria/

Please check the original source of that article and then this page about them: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Sorcha_Faal

 

[sunny jim]

Please check the original source of that article and then this page about them: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Sorcha_Faal

Cheers for that link elbows, I was a bit worried then!

 

[ska invita]

Sorry, not been up to speed on the Syria threads - apols if a repost - what do people make of this, dated June 2012
Syrian rebels aim to use chemical weapons, blame Damascus – report
http://rt.com/news/syria-chemical-weapons-plot-532/

also theres this
http://www.examiner.com/article/hac...-approved-plan-to-stage-syria-chemical-attack

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/did-syria-gas-its-own-people-the-evidence-is-mounting-8783590.html

This recent piece from Patrick Cockburn in the Independent is interesting because it

a) Tips in favour of the theory that the chemical attacks were indeed from the government.

b) Outlines that "al-Qa'ida-linked organisations, such the al-Nusra Front and the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant <are> increasingly the most effective military component of the opposition"

This has been known for some time. There are swathes of people from random internet bibblers up to the tops of government and military who are falling over themselves to see Al Qaeda get a leg up in one country, while preaching about how we are at war with them in others. I have not yet seen even a half arsed defence of this lunatic case.

Many parallels with the Iraq crimes may not carry, though truth will probably turn out to be the typically early casualty here as there, but in one regard there is a stark parallel: No reasonable consideration of consequence, it's as if it doesn't even occur to supposedly intelligent "leaders" and commentators. Yet it does occur to semi-randoms on the internet
http://themonkeycage.org/2013/08/27/do-military-interventions-reduce-killings-of-civilians-in-civil-wars/
Finally, if you want prime examples of nations with a record of fucking up that region, well USUK and France are it. Some might say Israel should get a look at the title, but at least Israel is actually in the region.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Jihadis carrying out ethnic cleansing. Ethnic cleansing has been used to justify intervention in the past, so presumably the imperial powers will intervene on both sides. Certainly will suit the death-dealing scum.

Embedded media from this media site is no longer available

 

[Fuchs66]

How is a chemical weapon defined? There's plenty of radioactivity left over from the Bunker Busters the US used in Iraq.

For the purposes of this Convention:
1. "Chemical Weapons" means the following, together or separately:

(a) Toxic chemicals and their precursors, except where intended for purposes not prohibited under this Convention, as long as the types and quantities are consistent with such purposes;
(b) Munitions and devices, specifically designed to cause death or other harm through the toxic properties of those toxic chemicals specified in subparagraph (a), which would be released as a result of the employment of such munitions and devices;
(c) Any equipment specifically designed for use directly in connection with the employment of munitions and devices specified in subparagraph (b).​

http://www.opcw.org/chemical-weapons-convention/articles/article-ii-definitions-and-criteria/

 

[Sam75]

I would take anything from RT with a grain of salt, it's basically a modern version of Pravda.

 

[DownwardDog]

What about the Tornados in Gulf War 1? And the Turkish Phantom last year?

The DS GR.1s were lost from a combination of poor planning, poor airmanship and inflexible application of Cold War doctrine. If we'd been fighting the Sovs in WW3 that level of loss would have been a roaring success...

The Turkish F4 wasn't expecting to be shot at as they violated Syrian air space by accident so there was no electronic countermeasure support or prior degradation of Syrian air defence or command and control assets.

Both examples aren't indicative of how Syrian AD will perform when faced with the might and majesty of a full on integrated air attack.

 

[weltweit]

'No doubt' Syria used chemical arms, says US Vice-President Joe Biden
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23859892

 

[brogdale]

Get back to me when the death toll in Turkey reaches 100,000, including hundreds from CWs.

Any attempt at equivalency here is beyond dishonest.

Does hypocrisy have to be substantiated with quantative equivalence?

 

[TomUS]

Indication that Assad was planning to use CW....

North Korea tried to export gas masks to Syria this spring, presumably for use in the Middle East nation's chemical weapons program, but the shipment was intercepted by Turkey along with arms and ammunition, a Japanese newspaper reported Tuesday.

"Gas masks and protective gear are considered weaponry because they are used for atomic, biological and chemical weapons. So if this equipment was sold by North Korea to Syria, on orders of the Syrian government, it shows that the Syrian government was contemplating the use of chemical weapons," said Shin In-kyun, a South Korean military expert and head of the Korea Defense Nework.

A Syrian delegation was reported to have visited Pyongyang, North Korea's capital, in late July.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/08/27/200582/north-korea-tried-to-ship-gas.html#.Uh2hJoXbw6s

​

 

[ska invita]

I would take anything from RT with a grain of salt, it's basically a modern version of Pravda.

Definitely, especially when Russian interests are most directly involved, I just found the date of it interesting (a year ago)

 

[kebabking]

What about the Tornados in Gulf War 1? And the Turkish Phantom last year?

as DD says - whoop-de-wo. Serbia shot down a single F-117 but got every bridge, government ministry, powerplant, barracks, and airport in their entire country turned into smoking hole in the ground. Iraq 'achieved' the same result. twice. these are not 'wins'. they are tiny consolation prizes that only show up the size and scale of the defeat inflicted.

if you get into a fight with someone and properly punch their lights out, but upon getting home you discover you've grazed a knuckle - have you lost?

 

[cyprusclean]

Has it occured to Cameron, Obama etc that there would be a retaliation to a "surgical strike?

And what form it would take?

 

[elbows]

Has it occured to Cameron, Obama etc that there would be a retaliation to a "surgical strike?

And what form it would take?

Even if it somehow failed to occur to them personally, it will have been discussed at length by the machinery of their respective states.

Some of the potential responses by Syria will be knocked out by the strikes themselves. Others that remain available will involve 'terrorist' type attacks and other forms of destabilisation of other countries in the region, utilising the potential of Syrias various partners as much as Syrias own direct capabilities. Lebanon is an obvious choice. But even when feeling vengeful after being bombarded, both Syria and its partners will still face various factors that may moderate their will to respond in such a way.

 

[kebabking]

Has it occured to Cameron, Obama etc that there would be a retaliation to a "surgical strike?

And what form it would take?

what form could it take?

Assad has no military assets that could engage UK/US targets - if he fired of his remaining SCUD's at Cyprus the Israeli's or USN would shoot them down, his air force can't do strike against defended targets, and his navy is somewhat outclassed.

the only thing he has is terrorism. not a wise choice of weapon given the attitudes of his protectors to the use of state sponsored terrorism.

 

[butchersapron]

what form could it take?

Assad has no military assets that could engage UK/US targets - if he fired of his remaining SCUD's at Cyprus the Israeli's or USN would shoot them down, his air force can't do strike against defended targets, and his navy is somewhat outclassed.

the only thing he has is terrorism. not a wise choice of weapon given the attitudes of his protectors to the use of state sponsored terrorism.

cyprusclean answered that a few days ago - the Syrian state could order Iran to attack London and Washington.

 

[Pingu]

as DD says - whoop-de-wo. Serbia shot down a single F-117 but got every bridge, government ministry, powerplant, barracks, and airport in their entire country turned into smoking hole in the ground. Iraq 'achieved' the same result. twice. these are not 'wins'. they are tiny consolation prizes that only show up the size and scale of the defeat inflicted.

if you get into a fight with someone and properly punch their lights out, but upon getting home you discover you've grazed a knuckle - have you lost?

what form could it take?

Assad has no military assets that could engage UK/US targets - if he fired of his remaining SCUD's at Cyprus the Israeli's or USN would shoot them down, his air force can't do strike against defended targets, and his navy is somewhat outclassed.

the only thing he has is terrorism. not a wise choice of weapon given the attitudes of his protectors to the use of state sponsored terrorism.

problem with Syria tbh isn't Syria... its Russia. they have a naval base (small but real) there and more than rocks and arrows to shoot at any passing coalition assets. without Russian support (overt or covert) there wont be any planes going anywhere near the southern part of the Syrian coastline

 

[cyprusclean]

cyprusclean answered that a few days ago - the Syrian state could order Iran to attack London and Washington.

You're a troll then?

 

[teqniq]

problem with Syria tbh isn't Syria... its Russia. they have a naval base (small but real) there and more than rocks and arrows to shoot at any passing coalition assets. without Russian support (overt or covert) there wont be any planes going anywhere near the southern part of the Syrian coastline

All personnel withdrawn from Russian navy base in Syria - diplomat

 

[cyprusclean]

problem with Syria tbh isn't Syria... its Russia. they have a naval base (small but real) there and more than rocks and arrows to shoot at any passing coalition assets. without Russian support (overt or covert) there wont be any planes going anywhere near the southern part of the Syrian coastline

The British have a military base across the water in Cyprus.

 

[Pingu]

All personnel withdrawn from Russian navy base in Syria - diplomat

still there

The Russian defense minister, flatly denied that his country's troops have left Syria, and explained that the Russian soldiers are not currently in the base because long civil personnel took over the operation of the port of Tartus.

"This staff continues to work on a regular basis and we can not speak of any kind of evacuation," says the statement from the Ministry of Defence.

later article than the RT one


they also have a small fleet patrolinng the coast

 

[Pingu]

The British have a military base across the water in Cyprus.

very happy for us... how does that change things?