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Do you now support military action against Syria's government?

Do you now support military action against Syria's government?

  • Yes

    Votes: 18 9.9%
  • No

    Votes: 162 89.5%

  • Total voters
    181
You're a troll then?


I'm not sure taking the piss out of your idiotic suggestion counts as proper trolling.

Personally I'd reserve the term for people who have no real interest for the subject matter at hand. Butchers may well have a style of posting that is not to everyones taste, but his merciless attacks on the substance of various posts does tend to be in the service of the subject matter being discussed.
 
The British have a military base across the water in Cyprus.

if you think Russia is going to go to war for a hot turd like Assad, then you've another thing coming. he's a tool, he exists to fullfill a function - when he gets broken, or his maintainence cost gets to high, he'll get dropped.

neither Russia, nor NATO, are stupid - whatever the political rhetoric there will deconfliction to ensure accidents don't happen.
 
This view is starting to make more sense to me.

"So it is a message from PR man David Cameron and an impotent Barack Obama to show that they are not impotent when this is exactly what they are.

In the Guardian this morning, Giles Fraser puts it this way: “What politicians hate most is the perception that they are ineffective and that they are being led by events rather than in control of them. Yet this is precisely what an attack on Syria would represent. For there is obviously no wider plan as to how the west might enable Syria to transition to a more stable and peaceful state. Perhaps no such plan is possible.”

The impotency will only be underscored by the response from the Assad regime. It will not be listening to any message and strikes are unlikely to end the war as long as Russia and Iran continue to back Syria and supply weapons."

http://hurryupharry.org/2013/08/28/syrian-weapons/#more-84444
 
I'm not sure taking the piss out of your idiotic suggestion counts as proper trolling.

Personally I'd reserve the term for people who have no real interest for the subject matter at hand. Butchers may well have a style of posting that is not to everyones taste, but his merciless attacks on the substance of various posts does tend to be in the service of the subject matter being discussed.

If you feel the need to defend his ankle biting, go ahead. Because that's all he does.
 
All the 'sides' in Syria are the wrong side

aye we would be best off on this one letting the turks have a pop and just supplying the weapons to them. none of the sides in this one (except maybe the non combatants) are the "good guys" and its only going to end up a messy clusterfuck
 
Interesting and possibly hopeful development:

Syria crisis: Britain will seek UN authorisation for military action

the reason being that:


There will be no UN authorisation: Russia and / or China will veto it. This is a handy get-out for Cameron and Obama.

My own view is that someone - likely Assad - appears to be using chemical weapons and I really don't want our troops exposed to them. Even more, the response to a chemical attack would be a nuclear one and that's something I really don't want to see.

Further, neither Cameron nor Obama are actually serious about ousting Assad. If they were, they'd have made or arranged an offer of asylum - or else.
 
Finally a bit of sense from the Guardian, by Seumas Milne. He thinks the rebels are more likely than Assad to have used chemical weapons:

All the signs are they're going to do it again. The attack on Syria now being planned by the US and its allies will be the ninth direct western military intervention in an Arab or Muslim country in 15 years. Depending how you cut the cake, the looming bombardment follows onslaughts on Sudan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Mali, as well as a string of murderous drone assaults on Yemen, Somalia and Pakistan.

The two former colonial powers that carved up the Middle East between them, Britain and France, are as ever chafing for a slice of the action as the US assembles yet another "coalition of the willing". And as in Iraq and Sudan (where President Clinton ordered an attack on a pharmaceuticals factory in retaliation for an al-Qaida bombing), intelligence about weapons of mass destruction is once again at the centre of the case being made for a western missile strike.

In both Iraq and Sudan, the intelligence was of course wrong. But once again, UN weapons inspectors are struggling to investigate WMD claims while the US and its friends have already declared them "undeniable". Once again they are planning to bypass the UN security council. Once again, they are dressing up military action as humanitarian, while failing to win the support of their own people.

The trigger for the buildup to a new intervention – what appears to have been a chemical weapons attack on the Damascus suburb of Ghouta – certainly has the hallmarks of a horrific atrocity. Hundreds, mostly civilians, are reported killed and many more wounded, their suffering caught on stomach-churning videos. But so far no reliable evidence whatever has been produced to confirm even what chemical might have been used, let alone who delivered it. The western powers and their allies, including the Syrian rebels, insist the Syrian army was responsible. The Damascus government and its international backers, Russia and Iran, blame the rebels.

The regime, which has large stockpiles of chemical weapons, undoubtedly has the capability and the ruthlessness. But it's hard to see a rational motivation. Its forces have been gaining ground in recent months and the US has repeatedly stated that chemical weapons use is a "red line" for escalation. For the same reason, the rebel camp (and its regional sponsors), which has been trying to engineer a western intervention in the Libya-Kosovo mould for the past two years to tip the military balance, clearly has an interest in that red line being crossed.

Three months ago, the UN Syria human rights commission member Carla Del Ponte said there were "strong concrete suspicions" that rebel fighters had used the nerve gas sarin, and Turkish security forces were reported soon afterwards to have seized sarin from al-Qaida-linked al-Nusra Front units heading into Syria.

The arms proliferation expert, Paul Schulte, of King's College London, believes rebel responsibility "can't be ruled out", even if the "balance of probability" points to the regime or a rogue military commander. Either way, whatever Colin Powell-style evidence is produced this week, it's highly unlikely to be definitive.

But that won't hold back the western powers from the chance to increase their leverage in Syria's grisly struggle for power. A comparison of their response to the Ghouta killings with this month's massacres of anti-coup protesters in Egypt gives a measure of how far humanitarianism rules the day.

The Syrian atrocity, where the death toll has been reported by opposition-linked sources at 322 but is likely to rise, was damned as a "moral obscenity" by US secretary of state John Kerry. The killings in Egypt, the vast majority of them of civilians, have been estimated at 1,295 over two days. But Barack Obama said the US wasn't "taking sides", while Kerry earlier claimed the army was "restoring democracy".

In reality, western and Gulf regime intervention in Syria has been growing since the early days of what began as a popular uprising against an autocratic regime but has long since morphed into a sectarian and regional proxy war, estimated to have killed over 100,000, balkanised the country and turned more than a million people into refugees.

Now covert support has become open military backing for a rebel movement split into over 1,000 groups and increasingly dominated by jihadist fighters, as atrocities have multiplied on all sides. While the focus has been on Ghouta this week, rebels have been ethnically cleansing tens of thousands of Kurds from north east Syria across the border into Iraq.

Until now, the western camp has been prepared to bleed Syria while Obama has resisted pressure for what he last week called more "difficult, costly interventions that actually breed more resentment". Now the risk to US red line credibility seems to have tipped him over to back a direct military attack.

But even if it turns out that regime forces were responsible for Ghouta, that's unlikely to hold them to account or remove the risk from chemical weapons. More effective would be an extension of the weapons inspectors' mandate to secure chemical dumps, backed by a united security council, rather than moral grandstanding by governments that have dumped depleted uranium, white phosphorus and Agent Orange around the region and beyond.

In any case, chemical weapons are far from being the greatest threat to Syria's people. That is the war itself and the death and destruction that has engulfed the country. If the US, British and French governments were genuinely interested in bringing it to an end – instead of exploiting it to weaken Iran – they would be using their leverage with the rebels and their sponsors to achieve a ceasefire and a negotiated political settlement.

Instead, they seem intent on escalating the war to save Obama's face and tighten their regional grip. It's a dangerous gamble, which British MPs have a responsibility to oppose on Thursday. Even if the attacks are limited, they will certainly increase the death toll and escalate the war. The risk is that they will invite retaliation by Syria or its allies – including against Israel – draw the US in deeper and spread the conflict. The west can use this crisis to help bring Syria's suffering to an end – or pour yet more petrol on the flames.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/27/attack-syria-chemical-weapon-escalate-backlash
 
All the 'sides' in Syria are the wrong side for us.

The only way to unify that country is to start a war with us or the Israeli's
assad is winning. the west will lose interest and has no heart for another long war. plus any real involvement in this issue has the potential to lead to a super big war which would be a very bad idea.
 
ISTR masses of Kurds on that march. What was their message that day?


:confused: I honestly don't understand your question.

If you're asking about motives for marching against war I can only answer for myself. I am against war in principle, and always have been
 
The possible Israeli response to any retaliatory attacks against them like happened 1991 when Iraq attacked Israel in response to the first Gulf war is another concern.
Netanyahu said on Sunday,''Our finger must always be on the pulse. Our's a responsible finger and if necessary, it will also be on the trigger''
Sales in gas masks in Israel have increased rapidly since the reports of reprisal attacks on Syria started.
The US can only control the big stick of Israel so far and I am sure diplomats will be working to keep the IDF in check, but once things flare up it will be everyone for themselves in the region, including Turkey too.
 
emailed this to my MP. Feel free to use it as a template. The choice of main argument is deliberate, it is challenging what strikes me as the biggest stupidity and double standard of the pro-intervention case. You may have other angles.

---------------------------------------------------

Dear....

I know you will be receiving lots of opinion and request about Syria, so will keep my observations brief.

In summer 2012 the US Council On Foreign Relations stated that the only reason why the rebel forces had not been defeated at that point was the presence of the Al Qaeda linked Al Nusra, islamist death squads and similar Jihadi elements in the anti Assad forces. These elements are now conducting ethnic cleansing against Kurds in the north of the country.

Beyond a seemingly unlikely peace conference there seems no clear way to improve things in the short term. However, there are guaranteed ways of making things worse. These include introducing more elements of violence in a fashion that will give birth to 100,000 "Allah Akbars"

No matter what one's opinion on the war in Afghanistan, it makes no sense to give a leg up to Jihadis in one country while fighting them in another.

In truth, outside elements are influenced far more by cold geopolitics than morals in this matter, so the pretence that morals have much part in this debate can be insulting to the intelligence.

Please do what you can to avoid increased resentment and security risk to the UK, and to avoid aiding murderous Jihadis and the morally degenerate arms trade.

Please speak and vote against any UK military action in Syria.

Please do not be distracted by any daft case that such a case is apologism for the Assad regime. This is not a case of "very good guys" versus "very bad guys", any argument resting on such supposition is null and void for its simplistic stupidity.

Thank you

<name and address>
 
Meanwhile, Obama will be eulogising at the Martin Luther King memorial tonight, just hours before doing something that King would have been appalled by and would have actively opposed.

Cameron seems to have excelled himself - he appears even more keen than the US in this. Who's he been speaking to or does he, like Blair, think being a real statesman means starting wars. :(
 
Meanwhile, Obama will be eulogising at the Martin Luther King memorial tonight, just hours before doing something that King would have been appalled by and would have actively opposed.
Snap, I just mentioned this on another thread. I would like to hear what Obama says. Perhaps it will feature on the news.
Cameron seems to have excelled himself - he appears even more keen than the US in this. Who's he been speaking to or does he, like Blair, think being a real statesman means starting wars. :(
Cameron seems gung ho which is not good, Hague is trying for a UN SC resolution which is probably doomed, while Labour are asking for a full report from the UN weapons inspectors before there is any commitment to action. I am with Labour for the time being.
 
Cameron seems to have excelled himself - he appears even more keen than the US in this. Who's he been speaking to or does he, like Blair, think being a real statesman means starting wars. :(


Cameron is a Tory arse, but in general he's not a fool and he must think about (his notion of) the national interest. What the fuck does he hope to get out of this?
 
Cameron is a Tory arse, but in general he's not a fool and he must think about (his notion of) the national interest. What the fuck does he hope to get out of this?
Well here I am a little puzzled. I didn't have Cameron down as another Blair, but I don't quite see the angle in this one. I am probably missing something.
 
Cameron is a Tory arse, but in general he's not a fool and he must think about (his notion of) the national interest. What the fuck does he hope to get out of this?


Probably come out with some bollocks that if the UK doesn't intervene, Iran will nuke us :rolleyes:
 
As I understand it, Cameron will have to pose a question on which parliament can debate tommorow.

Wonder what it will be..
 
As I understand it, Cameron will have to pose a question on which parliament can debate tommorow.

Wonder what it will be..


"We have absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Assad gassed innocent civilians, but we're going to bomb Syrian civilians anyway, 'cos we is Tory innit."
 
"We have absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Assad gassed innocent civilians, but we're going to bomb Syrian civilians anyway, 'cos we is Tory innit."

hmm.

Well someone gassed them and there seem to be only two possibilities, the regime or the rebels.

Kerry seems pretty sure it was the regime, as does Hague.
Do the rebels even have the materials to carry out such an attack?
 
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