Discussion: UK anti-vaxx 'freedom' morons, protests and QAnon idiots

[elbows]

Who isn't against government restrictions?

"Fantasy bollocks"?

Wow!

Have you no memory of arguing with people on here about such matters in the last year or so?

Why do we have to go through this well worn routine with you all over again? Because yes, plenty of people support sensible public health measures and have some clue about reality. People arent happy about the last 2 years but they recognise that when faced with a terrible threat, action is required. Blame the virus.

 

[Sue]

Tbf, I know people who have a cluster of friends/relatives/neighbours who have had a nasty turn after the vax.

But is it because of the vaccine or would those people have become unwell anyway. (Also a nasty turn is a bit different to this epidemic of strokes and heart attacks reported by Griff.)

 

[elbows]

There is a vaccine against Diptheria but sadly no vaccine against dip-shit-theory-argh.

 

[StoneRoad]

Interesting - in my circle of family & friends (UK-wide, btw) there have been more problems with actual covid complications than with the vaccines. Several cases of "long covid" ... All the nine deaths were pre-vaccination, but not all from covid - mostly cancer of one sort or another. But no cases of "bleeds" caused by vaccination.

In my wider family; this is nearly 45 people in four areas of the UK. There have been several cases of covid in people vaccinated five plus months ago - All mild, not requiring hospital treatment, even in the couple with asthma. None in the triple jagged.
No covid deaths, either, fortunately.

When I had my booster, the post-jag "waiting area" had an emergency facility, in case of reactions. I asked if it had been used.
It hadn't, this is in a place that is giving several hundred jabs a day, to (obv) much older age groups, who are at risk from a wide range of illnesses plus trips & falls.
I have low blood pressure, so I was asked to wait a little longer & to alert them if I felt light-headed or unusual in any way, and there was at least one of the 'hub' staff checking those doing their wait ...

 

[LDC]

Who isn't against government restrictions?

There's this amazing stuff you might have heard about that's worth looking into, Freeman on the Land. It lets you get away with ignoring all government restrictions on your important individual liberty. I think it might be right up your street.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

But is it because of the vaccine or would those people have become unwell anyway. (Also a nasty turn is a bit different to this epidemic of strokes and heart attacks reported by Griff.)

Well, exactly. Could be a coincidence, but it does sometimes sound a bit strange and it's not limited to easily diagnosed conditions. Should say I'm double-vaxxed and will get my booster.

 

[elbows]

Plus we've seen during this pandemic what happens when there is an actual safety issue with a particular vaccine. People gradually got a lesson in how to tell the difference between 'other countries playing politics over the AZ vaccine' and legitimate concerns about side-effects that showed up in data and required a response. Leading UK authorities to impose some age-based rules on the Oxford-AZ vaccine and then quietly removing that vaccine from most of the UKs forward planning.

 

[emanymton]

You're a liar, but what's interesting and weird is I'm not sure you even know you're lying.

This is something I struggle with a lot these days. I just cannot workout if people belive the shit they say or not anymore.

I think it is because it is such obvious bullshit most of the time I can't imagine how anyone could belive it.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Don't equate feeling shit, even really shit, with having a stroke post-vaccine.

I'm not. The weirdest one is someone who has to use a wheelchair after getting the vaccine. A friend's cousin or something.

 

[elbows]

I dont find it hard to believe that some people believe a load of shit. Because human beliefs are a messy business and people do have all sorts of reasons to mistrust authorities, which can lead to belief systems that, under certain circumstances, end up drawing entirely the wrong conclusions. We are often victims of our own pattern recognition systems, when errors are made at a fundamental level of that process. There can be a plausible internal logic to it all, but just a few simple errors or bad input 'facts' can send people down routes that are increasingly distanced from reality.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Funnily enough the two vaccine hesitant people I know both claim to know someone who has died from the vaccine.

 

[StoneRoad]

I'm not. The weirdest one is someone who has to use a wheelchair after getting the vaccine. A friend's cousin or something.

I know of a case like that, a friend of my youngest cousin.
But,
It has now be disclosed that there is an explanation.
The person concerned has MND ... so the 'chair using ain't vaxx related.

 

[two sheds]

Funnily enough the two vaccine hesitant people I know both claim to know someone who has died from the vaccine.

I know six who've been run down by a bus half an hour later you're not telling me that's coincidence.

 

[hitmouse]

Well I haved gamed in the past and developed using 3D game engines, so I know what an NPC is but I'll be making no attempts to consider how the basic concept may have been taken and misapplied to something fuckwits imagine could actually be part of the real world.

I mean, as with so many things you're probably happier not knowing, but if you (or gentlegreen ) are curious, it's basically just a rebranded way of saying "sheeple", for arrogant self-centered cunts who are convinced they're the only people who can actually think.

Who isn't against government restrictions?

I mean, to quote from an article I thought was quite good:

Rather than make vague statements for #freedom in the style of the Tea party right, we must locate and attack the instruments of power and control. “Lockdown” has come to mean a myriad of very contrasting measures – from asking people to stay at home to policed curfews, from enforcing meager workplace health and safety to the breaking of strikes, from closing businesses and schools to violent prison lockdowns (the term’s original meaning), from fining tourists and quarantine hotels to detaining migrants in military camps. It should be obvious which of these as anarchists we must attack, and which we can leave alone – or even fight for.

We must define our targets and recognise our enemies. Free business has nothing to do with our freedom. Simply opposing lockdown “edicts from on high” is as empty as supporting all protest.

Also, last week was the first time I'd had a stranger actually barge into an IRL conversation I was having with "oh, are you talking about the plandemic?" It sounded so ridiculous I thought he might be taking the piss at first but sadly he was serious, he had a brief go at educating us about how all of this was predicted in the bible but none of us really engaged so he went away.

 

[existentialist]

I said the vaccines don't stop infection or spread.

Then you were wrong.

ETA: oh, we're going to get into semantics here, aren't we? So, to be clear, vaccines reduce infection, and therefore spread. What's not to like?

 

[elbows]

Plus we've seen during this pandemic what happens when there is an actual safety issue with a particular vaccine. People gradually got a lesson in how to tell the difference between 'other countries playing politics over the AZ vaccine' and legitimate concerns about side-effects that showed up in data and required a response. Leading UK authorities to impose some age-based rules on the Oxford-AZ vaccine and then quietly removing that vaccine from most of the UKs forward planning.

There are more subtle examples available to study too, but I'm not sure how great public awareness of them is.

For example there was some concern that a rare side effect of mRNA vaccines was temporary heart inflammation. This showed up slightly in some other countries early data, especially for younger people and males, and as a result 16-17 year olds in the UK were only given one dose, pending better data about this phenomenon. More data is now available, so the authorities here have now decided to proceed with 2nd doses for that group.

The same concerns also led a few countries to advise people not to exercise vigorously for a few days after vaccination. I havent kept track of how many countries offered that advice, and whether they subsequently retracted it, but I know awareness of it isnt that high here because I've seen posts from people going on about how they went for a long run the next day, creating dilemmas about whether I should say something. Because each of us, just like the authorities, have to balance risk and reward, including the risk of putting people off vaccines when a small theoretical risk is on the radar. But there are some very obvious differences between trying to talk sensibly about details and risk-reward balances, and coming out with a load of anti-vax shite.

 

[LDC]

I know of a case like that, a friend of my youngest cousin.
But,
It has now be disclosed that there is an explanation.
The person concerned has MND ... so the 'chair using ain't vaxx related.

Yeah, loads of this is just second hand embellished stories and rumours. As well as a misunderstanding of stats and medicine. It really reminds me of the stuff about immigrants, the "My cousin knows someone who came here illegally who the council bought a car for..." kind of stuff that's common repeated urban myths.

And of the people that repeat those myths some are outright lying for an agenda, and some are just repeating what they've been told in good faith but without being able to unpick its relationship to the facts. (Hence lying but not really aware they are.) And underneath the bollocks they do both tell a story about the people repeating them and the concerns and issues they have in the world today.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

TBF, I think you have to meet people by saying the vaccine is unlikely to be 100% safe. To me, it's never been about whether the vaccine is 100% safe but the relative risk of covid vs the vaccine.

 

[existentialist]

TBF, I think you have to meet people by saying the vaccine is unlikely to be 100% safe. To me, it's never been about whether the vaccine is 100% safe but the relative risk of covid vs the vaccine.

But then we also need to introduce the idea that NOTHING is 100% safe. It intrigues me that, quite often, it's the same people who demand that the vaccine be 100% safe who make choices elsewhere in their lives to do things that are guaranteed not to be 100% safe. Which, I suppose, includes exposing themselves to a virus known to carry a rather less than 100% safety record, eg. by also refusing to wear masks or adapt their behaviour in other ways.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

But then we also need to introduce the idea that NOTHING is 100% safe.

Well, yes, this is true. My colleague got his first dose of the vax, but I don't think he's going to get the second. This is the guy whose cousin (if I remember the story correctly) is confined to a wheelchair after her 2nd dose. At least he's doing his absolute best to avoid covid also by not going anywhere at all crowded, wearing a mask even if not required, etc - though part of me thinks he enjoys being a bit of a hermit.

 

[Chilli.s]

Unknown short, medium and longterm side effects is a major concern.

As previously mentioned, picking my mother up off the floor with a bleed to the brain after her first jab wasn't great.

Other people in our circle of friends etc. with strokes and heart attacks. But hey how, not to worry.

With the number of vaccinated people now, 88% 1dose, 80% 2doses, 23% 3doses, that's a fuck lot of people (% of uk population over 12 years old). There would be dead piling up in the streets if it were as dangerous as you suspect. I'm sorry that you have had first hand experience of troubles but it is coincidence that people you know had this happen to them. Let's face it stress could cause all those things too.

 

[krtek a houby]

Why the fuck would I lie about this shit?

Grifters gotta grift?

 

[LDC]

Denial is a really powerful force with this kind of thing as well. If you're a 55 year old who's overweight, never really exercised, been smoking heavily for 30+ years, worked in a stressful job, and then had the vaccine and then had a heart attack or stroke 2 weeks later it's a good coping mechanism to blame the vaccine rather than have to face up to the actual reality of what's caused it. You tell yourself something often enough, and repeat it to others, and it kind of does become your reality.

 

[existentialist]

Unknown short, medium and longterm side effects is a major concern.

As previously mentioned, picking my mother up off the floor with a bleed to the brain after her first jab wasn't great.

Other people in our circle of friends etc. with strokes and heart attacks. But hey how, not to worry.

Anyway my initial post was about coving passes not my personal thoughts on the vaccines.

But your views on Covid passes are clearly informed by your personal thoughts on the vaccines - stop wriggling.

And you are attempting to claim your personal experiences as somehow more representative than the epidemiological experience of both the side-effects of vaccination, and the benefits of vaccinating. Come on, this stuff isn't rocket science - you MUST be able to see the glaring logical errors you're committing here.

 

[editor]

Six we've heard about since January.

Funny that because I don't know a single person.

 

[Griff]

Funny that because I don't know a single person.

I don't know anybody who owns a Lambretta, but I'm sure people do.

 

[existentialist]

I don't know anybody who owns a Lambretta, but I'm sure people do.

Ridiculous and facile comparison. Quel surprise

You're digging yourself a big hole here, and showing no signs of stepping away from the shovel.

ETA: FTR, as of Q2 2021, there were 24,000 Lambrettas registered in the UK. Versus 50 million first doses of the vaccine. Using that as a basis for some anecdotal handwavery smacks of desperation.

 

[Griff]

Ridiculous and facile comparison. Quel surprise

You're digging yourself a big hole here, and showing no signs of stepping away from the shovel.

Look mate, really not sure what your problem with me is.

Out and about in the real world and talking to people I know, there have been six instances of severe adverse vaccine reactions, pure and fucking simple.

Coincidences? Possibly? I think not, that is my point of view, no agenda, nothing else.

I'll leave the covid threads from now on in case I spread dis-information through the community.

 

[existentialist]

Look mate, really not sure what your problem with me is.

Out and about in the real world and talking to people I know, there have been six instances of severe adverse vaccine reactions, pure and fucking simple.

Coincidences? Possibly? I think not, that is my point of view, no agenda, nothing else.

I'll leave the covid threads from now on in case I spread dis-information through the community.

I don't have a problem with YOU. I have a major problem with the crappy ideas you seem so desperate to perpetuate.

 

[gentlegreen]

This far along I have less than zero tolerance for lazy covid bollocks.

Griff I thoroughly recommend this channel - if you don't actually learn virology and vaccinology it might at least reassure you that the scientists know what they are doing and have our backs.

https://www.youtube.com/c/VincentRacaniello/videos

Based on my personal anecdotal experience, get vaccinated, wear a mask and get on with your life.