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DfT may introduce compulsory delivery charge for online shopping -

Marty1

maintaining equanimity
Banned
- to reduce pollution and frivolous ordering.


Internet shoppers could be hit by a compulsory delivery charge as part of a campaign to cut congestion and toxic emissions, The Times has learnt.


The government is considering a range of measures to reduce the damaging impact of the e-commerce boom, which has led to a rise in delivery vans on British roads.


A report from the Department for Transport’s scientific advisers recommended a “mandatory charge”, similar to that imposed for plastic bags, on all Amazon-style consumer deliveries.


It said that the introduction of free and next-day delivery deals had led to “unnecessary over-ordering”, with some people immediately sending back clothes they no longer wanted free of charge. Mandatory charges may be needed to “encourage more sustainable behaviour”, ministers were told.


The DfT said that it was considering the conclusions and could launch a public consultation on the measures.


The move comes amid growing concern over the impact of internet shopping on the environment and congestion in built-up areas.


According to latest DfT figures, annual nitrogen oxides (NOx) emissions from vans soared by 43 per cent to 99,300 tonnes between 2007 and 2017. Total NOx emissions from all other forms of road transport including cars, buses and HGVs fell sharply over the same period. In all, vans caused a quarter of NOx road transport emissions in 2017 – more than three times the amount from HGVs.


Light commercial vehicles, a category that includes delivery vans, cumulatively travelled 50.4 billion miles in Britain in the year to the end of March, a 24 per cent rise in a decade. It was more than four times the average rise seen for all vehicles. The vast majority of vans are diesel-powered.


NOx causes breathing difficulties and long-term exposure can lead to chronic lung disease.


The DfT provides a grant of £8,000 to reduce the cost of an electric van.


A spokeswoman said: “Cutting congestion and vehicle emissions in our towns and cities is absolutely key to improving air quality and building a greener transport network. We continue to work closely with experts on the best ways to achieve that and to meet our ambitious 2050 net-zero target.”


The DfT’s science advisory council was commissioned last year to investigate “last mile logistics”, including how the government should “respond to the way this market is developing”.


The group’s report, published this month, said that the industry had boomed on the back of free, next-day and even next-hour deliveries of food, clothing and other goods.


The report said: “Several online retailers are now offering a ‘pay for what you keep’ service at no delivery or return charge to the consumer. This enables customers to request far more than they expect to purchase, to enable them to make their final decision at home.”


The figures revealed that goods valued at £2.4 billion were returned after the Black Friday and Cyber Monday sales in December 2018.


The report acknowledged the benefits of internet shopping, such as fewer people driving to shops. However, its authors recommended that some of the impacts of e-commerce could be minimised by incentivising customers to accept longer delivery times and consolidating deliveries to several people in the same neighbourhood.


Officials also said that problems could be tackled by “explicitly passing the true cost of delivery and return to the customer [which] could reduce unnecessary over-ordering”.


“A mandatory charge, similar to that implemented by the government to discourage plastic carrier bag use, could be applied to all consumer deliveries and returns to encourage consumers to recognise their true business, societal and environmental cost, and hence encourage more sustainable behaviour,” it added.


The DfT was urged to formally consult the public and industry on measures to reduce the “negative impacts of last mile delivery and encourage more sustainable online shopping behaviours”, which could include a standard charge. It is not known how much the charge could be or how it would impact services, such as Amazon Prime, the £79-a-year scheme that offers free delivery.


At present delivery charges differ depending on the amount spent and the delivery time.


The online clothing retailer Asos charges £4 for deliveries but waives charges for orders above £35. It also has free returns through Hermes-registered stores and the Post Office. Amazon customers can qualify for free deliveries on orders of more than £20.


Many supermarkets offer free deliveries, with Sainsbury’s doing so on orders above £100 after 2pm on weekdays. Supermarkets also run subscription services with unlimited deliveries for a nominal charge, often starting from £5 a month. Ocado charges £10.99 a month.


Steve Gooding, director of the RAC Foundation, said: “Making consumers pay the true cost of delivery could make people more selective in what they order and what they return. But if the cost is too high then shoppers might decide the cheaper option is to browse the shops in person, which is potentially good for the high street but less so for traffic volumes.”


The DfT told The Times that it was “not obligated to follow this independent advice” but insisted it would “fully consider and engage with it”, including the recommendation to consult on reducing the impacts of deliveries.


Robo-dogs do the leg work
Battery-powered “robo-dogs” could be used to deliver goods under plans to phase out diesel vans.


A study commissioned by the Department for Transport said that autonomous “dog-like” systems were being developed that could carry goods up and down stairs. They would be used alongside wheeled vehicles to carry goods the last few metres to the front door.


Starship Technologies of California has tested small robotic self-driving carts in Milton Keynes, which use cameras, ultrasound sensors, radar and GPS to navigate their environment and make deliveries in a four-mile radius.


Amazon is pioneering the use of drones and electric cargo bikes are also being used across the UK.

Seems like a good idea to me on the face of it.

Thoughts?
 
Would stop people ordering a theee pack of biros from Amazon.

On the other hand m-i-l has been locked in her house since mid-February and relies very heavily on Amazon for many of the things she needs, so would be penalised. Although tbf she buys shit in bulk to save on delivery costs, she has 40 bottles of bleach in her downstairs lav, she’s 79 so they will probably outlast her!
 
Would stop people ordering a theee pack of biros from Amazon.

Whenever I get an Amazon delivery and track it there's always at least one other delivery on my road. Or if it's got a long lead time and I've bought from the cheapest seller it comes by Royal Mail. It's not like there's a local independant stationers anyway, I'd just be buying them from Rymans or a supermarket. And they don't seem to do that thing where your packet of ukulele strings or whatever arrives in a 50 litre box anymore.
 
Setting aside the hopefully temporary complication of the lurgy, I'm not sure it will work as intended, I don't think it will work in discouraging much online shopping unless it is set fairly high. In which case it will encourage people to go back to the shops (good) but use their cars (bad). It might encourage people to start consolidating deliveries into fewer orders which is also good.
The best solution I can see is to encourage the switchover to electric/hybrid vehicles by imposing financial penalties on the use of diesel ones (and I speak as the owner of a diesel car)
If retailers/delivery firms were faced with a £5K a year penalty for a diesel van, £2K for a petrol one, £500 for a hybrid and £0 for an electric one then I suspect the move to less polluting vehicles will definitely accelerate.
 
A further thought the 5p charge on bags was successful because there was a superior alternative immiediately available at only marginally higher cost in the form of Bags For Life, the introduction of the bag charge just gave people a nudge in the right direction. I don't think home delivery is comparable.
 
A further thought the 5p charge on bags was successful because there was a superior alternative immiediately available at only marginally higher cost in the form of Bags For Life, the introduction of the bag charge just gave people a nudge in the right direction. I don't think home delivery is comparable.
I’d pay 5p for delivery tho
 
A further thought the 5p charge on bags was successful because there was a superior alternative immiediately available at only marginally higher cost in the form of Bags For Life, the introduction of the bag charge just gave people a nudge in the right direction. I don't think home delivery is comparable.
Like a lot of simplistic 'solutions' to complex problems this has not been a success.

The same is true for the cotton bags.

I'm in a rush, those are the first hits I've found, there are lots more.
 
I’d pay 5p for delivery tho
It wouldn't be a 5p charge on a delivery because that would have zero effect, it would have to be something like at least £5 or £10 to start having any effect on people's behaviour.
The last delivery I had which was a week ago was from Screwfix, they charged £5 for delivery. Charging £5.05 would have no effect, Charging £10 would make me consider going to the shop and picking up. (No option would make me consider not buying it).
I also need a new fluorescent bulb for one of the under cupboard lights in the kitchen, I have a favourite local business (non-chain) that I go to for such things which is a 20 min drive away. I considered buying it online to avoid an unnecessary trip in these days of COVID-19, so I emailed the manufacturer and they referred me to an online merchant.
£1.56 for a bulb but £12.49 for delivery. Sod it, I will take one of Mrs Q's superb homemade masks with me.
 
Neoliberalism has a lot to answer for.

My preferred simplistic solution is local hubs where bulk deliveries are dropped for local distribution by foot or electric cargo bike. Obviously that won't work for big stuff like beds or washing machines, but it works well for most stuff. They already exist, and are mostly painted red. The government could force their use.
 
If retailers/delivery firms were faced with a £5K a year penalty for a diesel van, £2K for a petrol one, £500 for a hybrid and £0 for an electric one then I suspect the move to less polluting vehicles will definitely accelerate.

Many delivery firms have drivers on pseudo self-employed basis who own their own vans (99% diesel) so it would likely be those workers who would take a financial hit.

Electric vans are still in their infancy at the moment and the one that are available are very expensive fwiu.
 
Reducing pollution - fuck off. A street getting stuff delivered by a single van is already way better than each of those households going off to the shops in their own transport. The government already offers an electric vehicle grant, but £8000 is a fucking pittance for a vehicle, especially considering how new and expensive electric vehicles are. Make it more generous you craven cunts, especially for owner-operators.

Frivolous purchases - excuse me? Like fuck should ordinary people listen to any shit about their personal spending habits, coming from some toff dickhead who most likely waxes fat on more public money than they could ever dream of acquiring. Fuck you. This is exactly the kind of eco-austerity nudge bullshit that I feared the politicos would start pushing.

Oh, and this will most likely help shitty companies like Amazon become even more dominant than they already are.
 
People should be encouraged to consume less across the board, but passing on financial costs will disproportionately affect disabled people.


Also. Plus size clothing is barely available on the highstreet.

^ This basically. Before Covid19, many disabled people, of all sorts, did most if not all their shopping online. Not being able to get into the shops in the first place is a big issue, before you look at the difficulties of finding stuff, carrying goods home.

When ordering from that place, yeah I'm evil, shoot me etc, I do try to order more than one thing at a time to save on deliveries. The alternative, order several items from different outlets and add to miles per package travelled.
 
Reducing pollution - fuck off. A street getting stuff delivered by a single van is already way better than each of those households going off to the shops in their own transport. The government already offers an electric vehicle grant, but £8000 is a fucking pittance for a vehicle, especially considering how new and expensive electric vehicles are. Make it more generous you craven cunts, especially for owner-operators.

Frivolous purchases - excuse me? Like fuck should ordinary people listen to any shit about their personal spending habits, coming from some toff dickhead who most likely waxes fat on more public money than they could ever dream of acquiring. Fuck you. This is exactly the kind of eco-austerity nudge bullshit that I feared the politicos would start pushing.

Oh, and this will most likely help shitty companies like Amazon become even more dominant than they already are.

Loads of good points there.

Amazon in particular could do one massive thing to reduce packaging waste by consolidating items into one box rather than the current system which for example - if you order 10 items, will usually come in multiple boxes/packages - sometimes individually packaged - I’ve delivered over 20 individual small packages to one household before with the customer even remarking as to why Amazon didn’t just put it in one box.

Yes, an £8k Grant is pathetic when faced with a £45k electric hybrid which is double the price of a new diesel version.

Amazon have the leverage to exploit these proposals to their dominant advantage.

 
Can't read the full article since it's from the Times, but if it's about pollution then this should be captured already by the fuel/vehicle taxes which are paid. If it's about people ordering then returning then this should be dealt with by looking at the remote purchase laws though I don't know how you address that really. I know more than a few people who order loads of clothes online and just return any they don't like.
That said if they weren't ordering clothes online they'd be going to shops to try stuff. If they do this by car then that's a return journey just for them, whereas the clothes do a (probably longer) return journey along with lots of other stuff.

I have some vague memory of a study which looked at the relative carbon costs of deliveries vs real world shopping and found deliveries way more efficient for the reasons other posters have already mentioned. 1 van can carry dozens of people's orders, and that would be dozens of cars driving to shops if they weren't. If you had lots of people shopping by foot/bike instead then there might be a difficult equation to work out here but logically/instinctively 1 vehicle driving all day delivering to multiple people seems better than multiple people all making short journeys individually.
 
Amazon would love this. It'd mean that, for example, instead of ordering one book from an independent bookshop, people would go to Amazon where they can order multiple different items for the same delivery fee. It'd be a very effective way of killing small online retailers.

It's not like there are vans driving around with a single item in, is it? Just because you've only ordered one item doesn't mean it gets its own dedicated vehicle.
 
Loads of good points there.

Amazon in particular could do one massive thing to reduce packaging waste by consolidating items into one box rather than the current system which for example - if you order 10 items, will usually come in multiple boxes/packages - sometimes individually packaged - I’ve delivered over 20 individual small packages to one household before with the customer even remarking as to why Amazon didn’t just put it in one box.

Yes, an £8k Grant is pathetic when faced with a £45k electric hybrid which is double the price of a new diesel version.

Amazon have the leverage to exploit these proposals to their dominant advantage.


I don't mean to tell you about the business you actually work for, but Amazon do already put items in one box if they're actually sold by Amazon and they're all at the same warehouse. But lots of their items are actually sold by different companies so can't be put in the same box because they're not being sent from the same location.

.
 
Many delivery firms have drivers on pseudo self-employed basis who own their own vans (99% diesel) so it would likely be those workers who would take a financial hit.

Electric vans are still in their infancy at the moment and the one that are available are very expensive fwiu.
Amazon's somewhat dodgy employment practices (and they're not the only ones) are a seperate issue from trying to reduce pollution and shouldn't be used to try and divert from dealing with pollution. What needs changing as well is employment law to make such things cost-ineffective compared to setting someone on as an actual employee.
 
Neoliberalism has a lot to answer for.

My preferred simplistic solution is local hubs where bulk deliveries are dropped for local distribution by foot or electric cargo bike. Obviously that won't work for big stuff like beds or washing machines, but it works well for most stuff. They already exist, and are mostly painted red. The government could force their use.

Yep all the different delivery companies with their different vans delivering to similar places makes little sense to me. Anarchy really, a bit like the different fire insurance companies competing for custom in the 18th and 19th centuries. A single organization could use the benefits of scale to go round delivering in small areas for much better fuel consumption and lower emissions rather than lots of them covering wide areas.

If they were really modern and efficient they could make oo I don't know say two deliveries a day for when you need something really quickly unlike that old inefficient system we used to have where .... oh wait.
 
Amazon would love this. It'd mean that, for example, instead of ordering one book from an independent bookshop, people would go to Amazon where they can order multiple different items for the same delivery fee. It'd be a very effective way of killing small online retailers.

It's not like there are vans driving around with a single item in, is it? Just because you've only ordered one item doesn't mean it gets its own dedicated vehicle.

One of the issues perhaps is people frivolously ordering stuff on a whim - on a daily basis - so you have delivery vans visiting the same address virtually every day of the week (not uncommon). It’s appears this proposal is looking to address this.
 
One of the issues perhaps is people frivolously ordering stuff on a whim - on a daily basis - so you have delivery vans visiting the same address virtually every day of the week (not uncommon). It’s appears this proposal is looking to address this.

By a method that would hand a huge advantage to big companies like Amazon, and basically be a a tax on being disabled.
 
I don't mean to tell you about the business you actually work for, but Amazon do already put items in one box if they're actually sold by Amazon and they're all at the same warehouse. But lots of their items are actually sold by different companies so can't be put in the same box because they're not being sent from the same location.

.

I was about to make that point when you did it.

Amazon have been sending multiple items in the same box for a while. It makes sense from a commercial point of view for them to do this.
 
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