Criminalising Pregnant Mothers who Drink

[purenarcotic]

according to the medical evidence the harm was caused by daily excessive drinking during pregnancy.
When do believe an individual gains rights?

Louis MacNeice
bit of a tall order to answer than in a rush, but as a starting proposition, if someone can cause you harm then you must have some sort of right not to be harmed. So the rights start as soon as harm can be caused to you. However as 'you' only exist as an autonomous person after birth, exercising those rights can only be done after birth, the foetus does not per se have rights but the person who grows from that foetus has a right to not be harmed while a foetus.

I hope that makes sense I'll read it back later and may want to revise it when I've got a bit more time.

I'm sorry I really must go out.

This is not how human rights work. This is incredibly flawed and dangerous logic.

 

[Awesome Wells]

did we get rid of class prejudice overnight then?

Irrelevant. What was said was disgraceful, and entirely typical of the attitudes on here.

 

[toggle]

all law ends up as class law innit.

I'd also be interested to know the colour of the women from your USA links. I suspect I already know though

exactly. the 'disgusting strawman' that thora raised is that this legislation is likely to be applied disproportionately harshly to women who are not from privilaged groups

and the cases in the US...

one of the sites I read while selecting what to link told me that in the cases where doctors sought to override women's right to make their own decisions during pregnancy, some 85% of the women were black or hispanic. a high proportion of them were poor (recieving welfare or medical assistance payments)

 

[kittyP]

OK newbie and some others.
Lets take two hypothetical cases.
One is a women who is pregnant and addicted to alcohol and drinks heavily and regularly.
One is a women who is pregnant and eats unpasteurised cheese ever day of her pregnancy.
They both through their (in your words) wilful/wanton behaviour cause damage to their foetuses and the babies are born with defects.

Now, it sounds ludicrous to prosecute a woman for eating cheese doesn't it?
Doesn't it?
Even more ludicrous than prosecuting an addict for something they could not control?
Surely, actually, by your line of thinking (not mine) the woman who ate the cheese should be more open to prosecution as (as much as I sometimes think I am) I have never heard of someone being seriously physically addicted to cheese. So surely the cheese eater just ate cheese coz they felt like it.

Hmmmm?

 

[Awesome Wells]

The disgusting strawman was disgusting because of the attitude it assumes on the part of the person to whom it was in response. I find your attitudes utterly patronising, mired in prejudice and often entirely hypocritical.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Mental health is, generally, an area with a shocking class bias in diagnosis and treatment. Presenting with the same symptoms, if you're poor, you're more likely to be diagnosed schizophrenic; if you're richer, you're more likely to be labelled bipolar.

 

[toggle]

Irrelevant. What was said was disgraceful, and entirely typical of the attitudes on here.

how was it disgraceful?

and why is it irrrelevent to consider how prejudice will determine whose behavior is and isn't considered criminal?

 

[killer b]

Shit, I've just remembered: There's no point whatsoever in arguing with this massive cock.

 

[Awesome Wells]

how was it disgraceful?

and why is it irrrelevent to consider how prejudice will determine whose behavior is and isn't considered criminal?

#335, if you could be bothered to read it which, given it was posted 3 minutes before you asked, you didn't.

This is exactly typical of the attitudes on here.

 

[toggle]

The disgusting strawman was disgusting because of the attitude it assumes on the part of the person to whom it was in response. I find your attitudes utterly patronising, mired in prejudice and often entirely hypocritical.

what attitude does it assume?

what prejudice do you claim is being displayed?

 

[DotCommunist]

pointing out the way that structural prejudice works makes you the prejudiced one. The stunning logic of a liberal

 

[Awesome Wells]

what attitude does it assume?

what prejudice do you claim is being displayed?

the same tired misandrist crap that comes out whenever someone dares to criticise a point of view held by a feminist on here. The attitudes that lead to people being barred from discussion entirely because someone dared to disagree with a woman. If this is typical of feminism as a whole, i don't want to know. The arrogance in these discussions, the constant strawmanning, is tiresome tedious and insulting. And for someone to then tell another that they debate like a teenager? Unbelievable.

 

[Awesome Wells]

pointing out the way that structural prejudice works makes you the prejudiced one. The stunning logic of a liberal

yet another strawman from a coward

 

[littlebabyjesus]

wow, you're on form today, aw.

 

[toggle]

yet another strawman from a coward

strawman = stuff i don't aggree with, but refuse to try to address

 

[Awesome Wells]

strawman = stuff i don't aggree with, but refuse to try to address

And this is the sort of deliberately misrepresenative insulting nonsense I mean. Right there. You don't even try and be honest and respectful.

 

[kittyP]

yet another strawman from a coward

I am confused now

How was what Dotty said not right.

It's sad that you feel the way you do about feminists and the discussion but it shouldn't let it stop you seeing that class/sex/race prejudice obviously has a baring here.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

the same tired misandrist crap that comes out whenever someone dares to criticise a point of view held by a feminist on here. The attitudes that lead to people being barred from discussion entirely because someone dared to disagree with a woman. If this is typical of feminism as a whole, i don't want to know. The arrogance in these discussions, the constant strawmanning, is tiresome tedious and insulting. And for someone to then tell another that they debate like a teenager? Unbelievable.

Has this really happened? Someone has been banned for disagreeing with a woman?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Blagsta]

bearing in mind I don't know who 'we' is, what can/will social services do?

I work for a drug treatment team.

Social services would support the mother in attending appointments and remove the child at birth if the risks were judged great enough.

 

[Awesome Wells]

wow, you're on form today, aw.

What do you expect when every discussion is conducted by biased people who refuse to see what they are doing and are more than happy to resort to the nastiest behaviour? A discussion forum where people are more than happy to condemn bigotry while labelling anyone they don't like or don't agree with or deont even understand as bigots. There is no respect here at all, it's just entrenched ignorant cliquey people taking pot shots without any intellectual honesty at all. I find that vile. These cowards don't even have the honest and the integrity to talk directly and explicitly to the obvious targets they intend their comments toward.

 

[Blagsta]

Mental health is, generally, an area with a shocking class bias in diagnosis and treatment. Presenting with the same symptoms, if you're poor, you're more likely to be diagnosed schizophrenic; if you're richer, you're more likely to be labelled bipolar.

I'd be interested in seeing the evidence for that.

 

[mentalchik]

What do you expect when every discussion is conducted by biased people who refuse to see what they are doing and are more than happy to resort to the nastiest behaviour? A discussion forum where people are more than happy to condemn bigotry while labelling anyone they don't like or don't agree with or deont even understand as bigots. There is no respect here at all, it's just entrenched ignorant cliquey people taking pot shots without any intellectual honesty at all. I find that vile. These cowards don't even have the honest and the integrity to talk directly and explicitly to the obvious targets they intend their comments toward.

 

[kittyP]

What do you expect when every discussion is conducted by biased people who refuse to see what they are doing and are more than happy to resort to the nastiest behaviour? A discussion forum where people are more than happy to condemn bigotry while labelling anyone they don't like or don't agree with or deont even understand as bigots. There is no respect here at all, it's just entrenched ignorant cliquey people taking pot shots without any intellectual honesty at all. I find that vile. These cowards don't even have the honest and the integrity to talk directly and explicitly to the obvious targets they intend their comments toward.

*bit in bold*
Well unless you are going to say who you are talking about, then aren't you doing the same thing?
It feels like you are tarring a lot of people with one brush to me.

 

[toggle]

pointing out the way that structural prejudice works makes you the prejudiced one. The stunning logic of a liberal

fucking speachless at this shit.

used to having that shite thrown at me for pointing out structural sexism.not usually getting it thrown at me for discussing class/race prejudice.

could a case be made that he is showing his prejudice, by claiming we are prejudiced for trying to highlight prejudice?

or more, is his problem with the idea that legislation to enforce behavior will impact more upon the poor and minorities, or with the fact a woman is saying something?

 

[Louis MacNeice]

What do you expect when every discussion is conducted by biased people who refuse to see what they are doing and are more than happy to resort to the nastiest behaviour? A discussion forum where people are more than happy to condemn bigotry while labelling anyone they don't like or don't agree with or deont even understand as bigots. There is no respect here at all, it's just entrenched ignorant cliquey people taking pot shots without any intellectual honesty at all. I find that vile. These cowards don't even have the honest and the integrity to talk directly and explicitly to the obvious targets they intend their comments toward.

Perhaps it would be better to start your own thread on discussion forum behaviour, bigotry and intellectual honesty rather than clutter up this thread with seriously off topic posts.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[toggle]

And this is the sort of deliberately misrepresenative insulting nonsense I mean. Right there. You don't even try and be honest and respectful.

i'm being perfectly honest. you use the accusation of 'strawman' to try to control what is discussed.

as for respect, you've been treated with far more respect than you deserve for this piss poor performance

 

[mentalchik]

What do you expect when every discussion is conducted by biased people who refuse to see what they are doing and are more than happy to resort to the nastiest behaviour? A discussion forum where people are more than happy to condemn bigotry while labelling anyone they don't like or don't agree with or deont even understand as bigots. There is no respect here at all, it's just entrenched ignorant cliquey people taking pot shots without any intellectual honesty at all. I find that vile. These cowards don't even have the honest and the integrity to talk directly and explicitly to the obvious targets they intend their comments toward.

There hasn't been any 'nasty ' behaviour on this thread imo

 

[Awesome Wells]

Perhaps it would be better to start your own thread on discussion forum behaviour, bigotry and intellectual honesty rather than clutter up this thread with seriously off topic posts.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

I was asked to explain my position, that was my explanation. Am i now not entitled to respond in defence of statements made in the thread when other participants ask me to do so?

 

[Awesome Wells]

i'm being perfectly honest. you use the accusation of 'strawman' to try to control what is discussed.

as for respect, you've been treated with far more respect than you deserve for this piss poor performance

If you call that honesty then you have a plain misunderstanding of what a strawman argument is.

 

[toggle]

Has this really happened? Someone has been banned for disagreeing with a woman?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

he was barred from one thread because of this kind of deliberately disruptive, manipulative and aggressive behavior.