Creating "Lexit": What is to be done?

[Wilf]

I think we should also forget about "the left" existing as a readymade vehicle or mass. Sure salvage/use any useful networks, ideas, traditions, resources etc. etc. but surely we've all learnt by now not to expect anything more from 'it'?

... and that has made the debate about Corbyn even more acute. The only place where a version of the left has been 'a thing' in the last 2 years has been the masses who joined labour. But they've neither sorted the Labour Party out or moved the party out into/engaged with working class communities. There's been a beacon of retro social democracy there, for people to potentially vote for (but won't do), but nothing to address the sense of abandonment and hostility there is towards politics. Labour is just another party that has no conception how to engage with working class communities or grievances (as played out over article 50, but more importantly, on a day to day basis).

 

[DotCommunist]

I think there are rumblings of discontent around the nhs - lots of people having difficulty getting gp appointments, spending hours on trollies in a&e, difficulties getting mental health treatment, social care cuts leading to increased hospitalisations and bed blocking, proposed closures of rural hospitals, people getting letters from private contractors saying their medical records have been reviewed and their medication is being reduced without being seen, etc.

waiting list here- in the space of three years- has gone from 1-2 weeks to 4-5 weeks. This in turn places further stress on a&e when people who were doctor surgery treatable are forced through pain to go to a&e. This A^E is at a hospital that had the great fortune to be ranked lowest in the country a few years back. Andrew Landsley, you are on the List

 

[treelover]

Having done a lot of IWCA door knocking in my time, it's definitely the most effective way of talking to people/finding out what's happening. And we tried all sorts of stuff.

An online presence is important of course but means you miss out on those who don't use the internet.

One of the issue i think you found, is if you do things but within a pro working class discourse, that acknowledges a white working class, for instance, other agencies will try to undermine you, even other parts of the left, such as it is.

 

[Raheem]

As long as the NHS is free at the point of contact (and in spite of the huge selling off behind the scenes that's going on, it will be that way for a fair while yet) you'll struggle to get a huge movement going based on it. If someone can take their poorly kids to the Dr's and get the calpol on prescription why should they care what's going on behind the scenes? People haven't got the time or energy to care anymore.

Lack of affordable/council housing and jobs. Show people this isn't the fault of immigrants. That's the challenge as far as I can see. Expose that lie.

There are a number of reasons why I don't think what you are saying about the NHS is right. I think people do, generally, have an understanding that privatisation in the NHS is a bad thing and, relatively speaking, it's also not a hugely complicated thing to explain and understand. And it's an area where the psychology of solidarity is intact. We don't tend to see sick people as feckless or devious (for the most part), which is a major difficulty for the right. And people don't experience the NHS as a binary thing where you either get your treatment or you don't. Apart from the fact that, in a lot of cases, the threat of not getting it is actually real, people actually are mobilised by issues to do with the quality of NHS treatment. More easily than anything else I can think of.

In any event, the idea that getting people to rise from their apathy over the NHS is just too hard, so we should instead be focusing on getting them to learn to love immigration makes it seem a bit as if you have never visited the UK, IMHO.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

waiting list here- in the space of three years- has gone from 1-2 weeks to 4-5 weeks. This in turn places further stress on a&e when people who were doctor surgery treatable are forced through pain to go to a&e.

Yeah, because the beds are full of immigrants, aren't they?

That's the lie people are being told, the lie an awful lot of people believe, from the working class to the middle englanders going private because they simply have no choice don't you know.

 

[danny la rouge]

I don't want to risk derailing, but the way I see it there are three main strands that have at one point or another been touched on in this thread.

First, that there was a good left wing case for leaving the institutions of the EU. The vote has been and gone, and that discussion is now moot.

Second, the pro and cons of the narrative which assumes the Leave vote was overwhelmingly motivated by reactionary impulses. That discussion has happened aplenty elsewhere and can still be had on other threads. This is not the place for it.

Third, the case put that the result of the vote has caused disarray in the ruling class and has created a space for working class demands to assert themselves.

This last is what I take to have been chilango's interest in starting the thread (correct me if I'm wrong). This is something practical that we can get our teeth into, and there have been some good contributions.

And not incidentally, I also think that it is through this process that we can begin to assert non reactionary impulses.

 

[chilango]

Third, the case put that the result of the vote has caused disarray in the ruling class and has created a space for working class demands to assert themselves.

This last is what I take to have been chilango's interest in starting the thread (correct me if I'm wrong). This is something practical that we can get our teeth into, and there have been some good contributions.

And not incidentally, I also think that it is through this process that we can begin to assert non reactionary impulses.

Yes.

This is exactly what I want to dicuss!

 

[The39thStep]

Mulling over in my head some themes for discussion "out there"....

• The Idea of "taking control back". From who? By who? how would this look?
• Nostalgia for a "Lost Britain" (or indeed for the EU we're leaving!). Regardless of whether it ever existed, what are things that (some) people are yearning for? Can they be positive things to create/build in our communities?
• Red Tape vs. Rights. Protecting who from what? Can we "defend ourselves"?

The Red Tape perception is IMO something that is never discussed by the Remainamista left aside to act as cheerleaders for the EU. It exists not only in the EU ,but also in our national and local state .
The 'lost Britain' is also very relevant . I once went to a discussion on his the BNP did so well in Burnley and key to that success was a series of leaflets with pictures of Burnley as it once was. Not just white but with industry and high streets full of shops and people. Whilst a return to that just isn't going to happen , the sense of pride and community can.
A more contentious issue is that many people who I have spoken to who voted leave felt a genuine sense of pride that 'little England' had put two fingers up to the EU. I doubt whether the left and patriotism could be an easy marriage but learning to coexist and acknowledge might be a starting point. Over here in Portugal it's the left ie the Communist Party who talk about protecting the national and working class interest by leaving the EU.

 

[Raheem]

Over here in Portugal it's the left ie the Communist Party who talk about protecting the national and working class interest by leaving the EU.

But we're now in a different context. What's the point in talking someone through the brochure when they've already bought the holiday?

 

[chilango]

But we're now in a different context. What's the point in talking someone through the brochure when they've already bought the holiday?

To look at whether they've got what what they thought they were getting?

 

[Raheem]

To look at whether they've got what what they thought they were getting?

But to what end?

 

[The39thStep]

But we're now in a different context. What's the point in talking someone through the brochure when they've already bought the holiday?

To see what else there is outside of the all inclusive hotel.

 

[Raheem]

To see what else there is outside of the all inclusive hotel.

Which would imply that you need to offer something new, not the same thing they've already paid for (or think they have).

 

[chilango]

But to what end?

Well, if we assume that they wanted something "better", but it hasn't materialised then that is the basis to try and figure out what that is and then create that "better"...

 

[Ming]

I think Brexit will end up leaving the country less regulated and with less redistribution through taxation. Heading towards the US way of doing things. Which is what the right always want anyway. I think Cameron never really had much enthusiasm for the Remain camp.

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[free spirit]

I've been working on a plan to push for a massive green infrastructure investment in our region partly to help offset the negative / chaotic economic impact and create a big long term stimulus in the local / regional economy sufficient to result in lots of apprenticeships and new long term jobs for skilled trades people, as well as securing the jobs in the steel industry etc.

We're £4 billion below the national average for infrastructure investment in this region, so that'd be the base level target for additional government funding in the immediate Brexit aftermath.

Keynesian stimulus meets Green sustainable development. Better to be pro-something positive than just anti-austerity / brexit IMO.

Not sure if that's really what the OP had in mind, but ultimately a big economic stimulus that delivers shit hot public transport, proper flood protection, reduced energy bills, and lot of decent long term jobs would seem like an unexpectedly positive potential upside to brexit to me. If we can finally nail the lie of austerity and offer a far more positive vision than the tories / UKIP then we could be in a position to make some significant political gains particularly if the brexit process turns into the chaotic process I suspect it will.

And it's not dependent on brexit, should we pull back from the brink and opt for a different path within the EU still then it's still a decent platform to take into any elections.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think Brexit will end up leaving the country less regulated and with less redistribution through taxation. Heading towards the US way of doing things. Which is what the right always want anyway. I think Cameron never really had much enthusiasm for the Remain camp.

That is of course the danger to us now, and what a lot in the tory party explicitly want. Disagree about Cameron though. He ran a shit campaign because he couldn't see past campaigning on a narrow r/w agenda talking about business. He was unable to put forward any other reason for remaining. But he certainly had enthusiasm for Remain - his job depended on it, and I'm sure he knew that full well.

 

[Ming]

That is of course the danger to us now, and what a lot in the tory party explicitly want. Disagree about Cameron though. He ran a shit campaign because he couldn't see past campaigning on a narrow r/w agenda talking about business. He was unable to put forward any other reason for remaining. But he certainly had enthusiasm for Remain - his job depended on it, and I'm sure he knew that full well.

I honestly think he took one for the team. Can't prove it but it advanced a long held tory agenda. They're so dishonest. What comes out of his mouth and what his actual plan is are two totally different things (remember 'now cut the green crap'?).

 

[redsquirrel]

I've been working on a plan to push for a massive green infrastructure investment in our region

Who are the pushers and who is the pushee?

Not sure if that's really what the OP had in mind, but ultimately a big economic stimulus that delivers shit hot public transport, proper flood protection, reduced energy bills, and lot of decent long term jobs would seem like an unexpectedly positive potential upside to brexit to me. If we can finally nail the lie of austerity and offer a far more positive vision than the tories / UKIP then we could be in a position to make some significant political gains particularly if the brexit process turns into the chaotic process I suspect it will.

Assuming this stimulus happens (and where is this money coming from) who gets to decide how it is spent?

And it's not dependent on brexit, should we pull back from the brink and opt for a different path within the EU still then it's still a decent platform to take into any elections.

Right, so this plan is based on getting involved with the electoral system then?

 

[danny la rouge]

I think Brexit will end up leaving the country less regulated and with less redistribution through taxation. Heading towards the US way of doing things. Which is what the right always want anyway. I think Cameron never really had much enthusiasm for the Remain camp.

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Wrong thread.

 

[brogdale]

Right, so this plan is based on getting involved with the electoral system then?

Had to see how it's possible to resist/challenge the neoliberal turn without paying attention to the role played by the consolidator state and those that presume to govern it on behalf of capital.

 

[Ming]

Wrong thread.

Bollocks. But I stand by my previous statement (Van Halen?).

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[free spirit]

Who are the pushers and who is the pushee?

The pushee is me, being worked up in conjunction with reps from the local and regional Green Party with the aim of becoming regionally supported policy to take into local and national elections over the next few years. But also aimed at bringing other parties and campaign groups on board to support it on a regional basis.

Assuming this stimulus happens (and where is this money coming from) who gets to decide how it is spent?

Treasury via borrowing. Combined group of local authorities in the region (tories would want it to be an elected mayor, but this has rightly been rejected here).

Right, so this plan is based on getting involved with the electoral system then?

I already am involved. Yes, the idea basically being to put out a plan that's hard not to support so that hopefully other parties will get on board with it anyway, but if not then use it as a key basis for challenging them at upcoming elections, building on the anti-austerity message of 2015 elections but actually putting concrete alternative proposals in place for a green new deal type infrastructure stimulus package to offset the economic chaos of brexit, loss of EU regional funding, and make up for the decades of under investment in the region's infrastructure relative to the national average.

 

[redsquirrel]

Right so it's a plan by a number of activists in a minor party, which aims to "[bring] other parties and campaign groups on board to support it on a regional basis." to get money from the government to be given to local authorities, the same authorities that are currently enforcing cuts. And the way to enact this is to get involved in local elections. (my emphasis on the bring)

I've no idea about the OP but IMO that's exactly the type of thing that isn't useful. A bunch of people presenting the community with a blueprint that solves "their" problems by insisting they vote for parties that have spent 30 years attacking them.

 

[danny la rouge]

a plan that's hard not to support so that hopefully other parties will get on board

The trouble with an economic plan that neoliberal parties find easy to support is that it may not be worth supporting.

 

[chilango]

Whilst I certainly wouldn't advocate free spirit's plan. I suspect were I too look at it, I'd oppose it. It is at least a "plan", an attempt at responding to the new challenges and so certainly valid for discussion here, even if that is a rejection of this plan.

If that makes sense.

Initially, I'd echo redsquirrel's response, and add that the Greens have to be very careful with their "progressive alliance" strategy. Jumping into bed with Labour and the LibDems means abandoning the vacuum to the populist right and throwing your lot with the "old order" as it were....

 

[danny la rouge]

the same authorities that are currently enforcing cuts

Indeed.

 

[danny la rouge]

One of the points that came across to me very strongly during the indyref campaign here in Scotland, and I'd be willing to bet in the Brexit ref in England, was that ordinary people feel that councils are remote, faceless bureaucracies; that councils actively disempower them; that councils don't feel "local". I agree. I think councils actively and deliberately infantilise residents, as anyone who has gone to a "local consultation" meeting can testify. Councils don't want active citizens; they don't want community self management: they want passive, compliant recipients.

I'd be extremely wary of anything coming via local government as it's currently set up.

 

[redsquirrel]

The Millwall business is perhaps an especially egregious example, but the fact is similar lower level stuff is all too often how councils work.

 

[danny la rouge]

The Millwall business is perhaps an especially egregious example, but the fact is similar lower level stuff is all too often how councils work.

I'm not immediately familiar with the Millwall reference...