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Creating "Lexit": What is to be done?

I think one thing to do is not get too hung up on what "the left" is doing. Depending on exactly what it means "the left" is either irrelevant or outright part of the problem.

I think the spaces for action danny mentions above are very likely going to be something that isn't based around the usual suspects.
 
Im not sure if the referendum result really changes all that much for the immediate future.

We are still facing a continuing attack on the working class. And the left needs to continue to try and defend against that attack. Now as well all know we haven't been very effective at that recently, but that is probably a bigger topic than this thread. Although one immediate consequence of the referendum is that the pace of the attack might be slowing as the government has to actually sort out Brexit. The nature of some of the struggles might be different but I don't think our overall position is that different.

We have been fighting (and losing) a defensive war for some time and that looks likely to continue.

I do think that if we are to have any positive impact at all we need to get over the referendum and deal with the situation we are in at the moment. How people voted in the referendum is now irrelevant, I think, what matters is what we do now.
 
One thing (less concrete than workers rights stuff, but interesting nonetheless) that has emerged a little for me is discussion about "democracy" and what it means...from "taking our country back" to arguing over the rights of the HoC...it is a new conversation I'm beginning to have with people.

Surely there's a space for ideas to be sown there?
 
I don't know, there have been some hiccups. But I think May is handling it quite well. Things seem to be going smother for them than I expected.
On the party political level maybe, but they've not even started negotiating yet and the rest of the EU is already putting the pressure on.

Anyway how she manages the demands of capital against those of the public is another possible area open for opportunities to fight.
 
On the party political level maybe, but they've not even started negotiating yet and the rest of the EU is already putting the pressure on.
Yes, until the negotiations begin its quite difficult to make many judgments I think.

I was hoping things would be a bit more backstabby though.

And while I don't like it, I do think May has done about as well as possible, given the situation.
 
Creating Lexit - first steps

Address why a large % the traditional Labour vote are now more attracted to Tories and UKIP
Ditch Corbyn and get an electable leader
Turn the Labour Party back to a Center-Left Party
Get in power
Start making changes people want - better funding for NHS etc.
Stop alienating your voters.
 
One thing (less concrete than workers rights stuff, but interesting nonetheless) that has emerged a little for me is discussion about "democracy" and what it means...from "taking our country back" to arguing over the rights of the HoC...it is a new conversation I'm beginning to have with people.

Surely there's a space for ideas to be sown there?
I think what's needed is a focus. Then around that you can start to build an ethos. This is what happened in the indyref. But also in every successful movement you can think of. Take the Black Panthers as an example. Once they had a momentum they built an ethos round that. And with that came practical things like breakfasts for school kids and so on.

In the indyref all sorts of autonomous self starting groups sprung up with different things to contribute.

What's needed first is the focus.
 
Creating Lexit - first steps

Address why a large % the traditional Labour vote are now more attracted to Tories and UKIP
Ditch Corbyn and get an electable leader
Turn the Labour Party back to a Center-Left Party
Get in power
Start making changes people want - better funding for NHS etc.
Stop alienating your voters.
No offence but sorry the above is precisely what I was talking about when I said a focus on the "the left" wasn't helpful, indeed actually harmful.

Getting drawn into an interminable Labour infight is not going to help workers.
 
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On the party political level maybe, but they've not even started negotiating yet and the rest of the EU is already putting the pressure on.

Anyway how she manages the demands of capital against those of the public is another possible area open for opportunities to fight.
you can see a fight coalescing around the NHS. I've a badge somewhere, a little one 'Save the NHS' from a campaign nearly as old as I am. When danny was talking of the fight for $15 lot and where things could firm up similarly I thought of that, most people know how expensive private is. They looked at the option when lil jonny was ill or mum needed a new hip. Its why they play political football with it every election.

on mays competence or otherwise, the lords are going to be making things annoying for the tory led brexit, so its still all up in the air imo
 
How people voted in the referendum is now irrelevant, I think, what matters is what we do now.
This is spot on. And sadly we spent the time since the result in as much disarray as the ruling class, bogged down with what were - in practical terms - divide and rule interventions from liberals.

And even more urgently, the reaction to Blair's intervention shows that the space that was opened up is fast closing.

Not that it can't be prised wide again.
 
IMO the only way anything positive is going to happen is by waiting for the Brexit situation to naturally develop into a negative disaster for the population, which I'm reasonably sure it will, and then something will or can fill that vacuum. You might be able to think of manoeuvres ahead of time to capitalise on that, but I haven't got much.

Now I realise all the problems with that. And by the time that happens, of course, the battlefield might have been moved. But that's the situation that's been created, where alternatives are divisive and/or unelectable. The material situation needs to unfold further before anyone is persuaded to vote in a new way. Anything else is irrelevant and/or piecemeal action you would/should have been doing anyway.

I have a fallback plan, too: wait until I'm dead and go from there.

Also anyone who says Lexit - outside of the context of summary punishment - should be shot.
 
It's difficult to predict what brexit could look like in 2yrs time let alone lexit. I think it's a mistake to see as the remoaner media does the EU as some sort of unified force ranged against little UK. The EU countries are not unified & with elections in several EU countries anything could happen. I think what bothers the main net contributor countries most is the loss of the UK's net contribution meaning they will have to pay more of their taxpayer money to fund projects in the majority of EU countries that are net gainers from the EU. This could have political ramifications in these countries leading to the EU as we know it to either change direction considerably or even break up. I would think best outcome might be EU as just a free trade block of friendly sovereign states but this might well be seen as an opportunity by Russia to bring Eastern Europe back under Russian influence. Perhaps only a bad thing if Russia continues to be regarded as 'the enemy'?

It depends what sort of lexit we want. As I pointed out in other threads a pragmatic lexit is probably the way to go rather than some fanciful socialist utopian lexit that will never get further than threads on internet forums & a few street demos. UKIP is going nowhere. They have no credible people & never will. I would guess they will gain no support & probably lose it by 2020 GE so Labour need to get former UKIP supporters to vote Labour not Tory. The realistic choice imo is lexit via the revival of the Labour party with policies that will help the people who should be natural Labour voters. That is the lower paid & those in poverty who are probably in poverty because half of their income goes on housing costs.

A realistic achievable lexit could be a Labour party that builds council houses, strengthens employment law, everything that helps the lower paid & not allows the lower paid to be exploited by tory supporting capitalism. To achieve power Labour needs to win the votes of those that voted for brexit. & needs to work towards that.
 
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UKIP going nowhere? I wish I shared your optimism.

Winning Stoke (which they will) is going to be a big boost. I expect others to follow them.
 
UKIP going nowhere? I wish I shared your optimism.

Winning Stoke (which they will) is going to be a big boost. I expect others to follow them.
it'll be close but I don't think it a nailed on UKIP win, not least because of Eddie Hitler claming to have been the fourth magi present at the birth of christ yet hitherto unmentioned in the holy books
 
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it'll be close but I don't think it a nailed on UKIP win, not least because of Eddie Hitler claming to have been the fourth magi present at the birth of christ yet hitherto unmentioned in the holy books
Look at the world around you. It's as inevitable as the tide coming in.
 
At risk of being seen as repetitive
As the Brexit process gathers pace, what opportunities - however small - might open up for us?

I'm interested in what discussions might open up? And where?

What action can we organise? and how?

Can we learn from the referendum in Scotland?

Note to Contributors: This thread hasn't been created to debate the rights and wrongs of the Brexit vote nor of those that voted for (or against) it.

It's too discuss what we can do with it now.

It's also assumed that contributors to the thread are interested in trying to create social change from a "left" or pro-w/c perspective.

If this doesn't apply please use more appropriate threads to contribute to.

Thanks.
Good thread idea.
But before launching into any prescriptions for organised agitation, it's worth remembering the 3rd element of the leftist 'tryptich'; educate!

If we are going to effect any meaningful (supported) influence upon the direction of Brexit, I'm convinced that 'the left' needs to mount a concerted effort to analyse, explain and expose the motivations of those forces that have driven the process.

For my own 2p-worth, I'm convinced that Brexiteers on the right have been working to an oligarch-friendly, neoliberal agenda. Their real antipathy to the EU has never been the 'common market' aspects of the project, but it's aspiration to fiscal/legal political convergence under supra-state jurisdiction. The growth of such a power bloc was/is a genuine threat to global neoliberal processes of accumulation and (crucially) wealth defence based upon tax dodging.

Hidden beneath layers of nationalist, sovereignty guff the Atlanticist neoliberals of the (long) 'Brexit' campaign have worked to hinder, slow, undermine and ultimately destroy the development of a supra-state with the potential to interfere with the evolution of advanced neoliberalism as determined by the oligarcic class. Mere nations have no chance of challenging globalised capital or co-ordinating any response matching that of the super-state.

As such I am in agreement with those who feel that many were duped by the Brexit campaign, but more importantly such hegemonic distortion is going to make the challenge of turning around opinion very difficult.

So, sorry...no great ideas, but a suggestion that one line of attack has to be 'education'.
 
UKIP going nowhere? I wish I shared your optimism.

Winning Stoke (which they will) is going to be a big boost. I expect others to follow them.
It's possible but after Nutall's antics not that possible UKIP could nick it but I doubt they would get re elected at next GE. UKIP caused brexit. logically Farage should be centre stage in the negotiations. Instead he has slunk away & even during the campaign Tory leavers did everything they could to disassociate themselves from UKIP. People just want quiet lives. They don't like extreme politics. I would guess most people find the far right quite frightening & with good reason. I think UK politics will carry on as it always has with Tory & Labour as main parties. The Lib Dems will probably come back eventually with a few more MPs like they always do & UKIP will fade away. I would guess even loony Clacton will return a Tory in 2020. I doubt Carswell will get in again.

In the years after the after the '97 election it was difficult to see how the Tories could ever become electable again & yet they did. Labour can & will do the same imo. They just need the right leadership.
 
At risk of being seen as repetitive

Good thread idea.
But before launching into any prescriptions for organised agitation, it's worth remembering the 3rd element of the leftist 'tryptich'; educate!

If we are going to effect any meaningful (supported) influence upon the direction of Brexit, I'm convinced that 'the left' needs to mount a concerted effort to analyse, explain and expose the motivations of those forces that have driven the process.

For my own 2p-worth, I'm convinced that Brexiteers on the right have been working to an oligarch-friendly, neoliberal agenda. Their real antipathy to the EU has never been the 'common market' aspects of the project, but it's aspiration to fiscal/legal political convergence under supra-state jurisdiction. The growth of such a power bloc was/is a genuine threat to global neoliberal processes of accumulation and (crucially) wealth defence based upon tax dodging.

Hidden beneath layers of nationalist, sovereignty guff the Atlanticist neoliberals of the (long) 'Brexit' campaign have worked to hinder, slow, undermine and ultimately destroy the development of a supra-state with the potential to interfere with the evolution of advanced neoliberalism as determined by the oligarcic class. Mere nations have no chance of challenging globalised capital or co-ordinating any response matching that of the super-state.

As such I am in agreement with those who feel that many were duped by the Brexit campaign, but more importantly such hegemonic distortion is going to make the challenge of turning around opinion very difficult.

So, sorry...no great ideas, but a suggestion that one line of attack has to be 'education'.

Could you elaborate on this theory please? Why do you think the EU posed a threat to neo-liberal accumulation?

This may be a slight tangent, but given you (rightly IMO) say that an important part of resisting rightwing politics involves education, I think it's relevant.
 
Could you elaborate on this theory please? Why do you think the EU posed a threat to neo-liberal accumulation?

This may be a slight tangent, but given you (rightly IMO) say that an important part of resisting rightwing politics involves education, I think it's relevant.
I suppose I mean this sort of thing...and this sort of argument...

The EU political elite is determined to create a country called Europe by pressing ahead with fiscal and monetary union, despite the disastrous consequences for countries such as Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Cyprus and even France.
Britain’s future prosperity lies in tackling the growing markets in Asia, China and South America, and in using our Commonwealth networks to create new opportunities for small and medium-sized businesses to export goods and services. We need to free business from regulation and regain control of our borders and our tax, welfare and employment law.
 
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I was about to say something along the lines of try and get some purchase on events, intervene where it looks like rights will be lost and communities screwed. But that's not the starting point for me. What's more important for anybody on the left, whether they think in electoral terms or not is to learn the lessons of how we got to this point; why there is now virtually no link at all between the left(s) and the working class; why there is a widespread feeling of abandonment in a neo-liberal world. If there's going to be anything at all it has to be built up from real life and real communities. Must say though, I'm not very optimistic.
 
I think what's needed is a focus. Then around that you can start to build an ethos. This is what happened in the indyref. But also in every successful movement you can think of. Take the Black Panthers as an example. Once they had a momentum they built an ethos round that. And with that came practical things like breakfasts for school kids and so on.

In the indyref all sorts of autonomous self starting groups sprung up with different things to contribute.

What's needed first is the focus.

Any ideas where we start?
 
Any ideas where we start?
Not really. Listen to what people want. As Dottie says, defending the NHS might be a good place to start.

Things are different in Scotland. I think the space here has been squandered as well, but for different reasons. Everyone is waiting to see what Nicola Sturgeon is going to do. Which saps the initiative from communities just the same.
 
Not really. Listen to what people want. As Dottie says, defending the NHS might be a good place to start.

Things are different in Scotland. I think the space here has been squandered as well, but for different reasons. Everyone is waiting to see what Nicola Sturgeon is going to do. Which saps the initiative from communities just the same.

I remember back in the early days of the IWCA the plan being to literally door knock and ask people...

There must be a more efficient way in these tech days?

...and then how do we make that a different focus from "Focus" style focus (iykwim)?

Round me the Greens already do this kinda stuff, with some success.

But, but...

...I'm struggling here :D
 
I think the NHS too. I think asking where the £350 million is ( I know the claim was false, but the left could work with it) especially as the NHS will have deficit of nearly £900 million according to this NHS trusts post 'unsustainable' £886m third-quarter deficit

I think looking to Ireland for the experience of how the water tax campaign took off would be a good start. I'm not there, but I'm pretty sure it involved knocking on lots of doors, community meetings and the like.
 
I remember back in the early days of the IWCA the plan being to literally door knock and ask people...

There must be a more efficient way in these tech days?

...and then how do we make that a different focus from "Focus" style focus (iykwim)?

Round me the Greens already do this kinda stuff, with some success.

But, but...

...I'm struggling here :D
The initial point of focus just needs to be something people are already doing, already concerned about, that isn't being imposed from outside the class. There isn't a magic formula. But once there's momentum we want there to be a myriad of self starting, mutually supportive struggles. Maximum antagonism between us and those who give orders but amongst ourselves a politics that is complementary and mutually reinforcing.
 
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