Creating "Lexit": What is to be done?

[emanymton]

The danger (for me) of a focus on the NHS is that it becomes a campaign of demands rather than a collective "taking no of matters into our own hands" as it were.

What exactly do you mean by this? I'm not too sure about a focus on the NHS either. Although I'm not entirely dure why.

 

[chilango]

What exactly do you mean by this? I'm not too sure about a focus on the NHS either. Although I'm not entirely dure why.

I'm just a little worried that instead of focusing on ways communities can take action themselves to "do stuff" that it could become a series of protests asking/demanding/begging that the govt "do stuff/stop doing stuff".

Doesn't mean it's not a valid focus, just thinking aloud in the hope that others might share thoughts/experiences.

The NHS isn't (yet) a major topic in my community - housing, education and creaking infrastructures that can't cope with rising population growth is the major one right now.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

taffboy gwyrdd Can you share what ideas you have or any examples of how we might move forward? What can be done to address these issues as you see/experience them? Have you been involved in anything that felt meaningful and/or showed success?

I've twice stated a key rhetorical and debate point where I think the left have somewhat fumbled at best. It's not me going round the houses on a blog from 5 years ago.

Lexit is curious to me because I consider it both a likel strategic mistake but also now the biggest hope.

Before the ref I asked comrades many times to outline an evidenced based strategy for how socialism could be built on Brexit, rather than the disgusting carnival of reaction we've seen so far.

Not one cogent answer, which is why I struggle with your question an why (along with free movement and NO LEAVE PLAN) I voted as I did.

We can call for red lines on free movement, workers rights, environment, Celtic issues etc. but the Tories can and will ignore all that.

I am very concerned that Tories can win the next election by saying "look, we did it. Stick with us". I will certainly be involved in any direct action to protect deportees but I am worried we will be working from a position of resistance rather than the proactive stuff I sense you are asking about. At the moment much of that is down to establishment procedure, but whatever we do...Thru unions, campaign groups, MPs, social media etc. I return to the point to hammer home: accepting Brexit doesn't have to mean accepting this Brexit. Sounds obvious but clearly quite sophisticated to many.

I will come back to this when I am on a less fiddly device. Im involved in various strands of activism but nothing Brexit specific, till now I have neither liked nor disliked the EU enough. I voted remain but sympathise with lexit. I don't mind leaving, I mind stupidity, cluelessness and monoculturalist influence.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I'm just a little worried that instead of focusing on ways communities can take action themselves to "do stuff" that it could become a series of protests asking/demanding/begging that the govt "do stuff/stop doing stuff".

Doesn't mean it's not a valid focus, just thinking aloud in the hope that others might share thoughts/experiences.

The NHS isn't (yet) a major topic in my community - housing, education and creaking infrastructures that can't cope with rising population growth is the major one right now.

I agree with these points.

 

[Sue]

There certainly are more hi-tech ways of getting feedback, whether they are more efficient I'm not sure.

I'm currently involved in a union campaign in my workplace, we've used email/internet surveys etc to try and get our message across but the most successful method, the one that gets you the highest % of 'hits' if you like is still door-knocking (for example less than 50% of members even bother to open (let alone read) the emails we send them). Both because people like the fact that you've gone to that effort and because you can discuss things on a more individual basis.

I don't think any of these alternatives replaces door-knocking, though they can be used to supplement it.

Having done a lot of IWCA door knocking in my time, it's definitely the most effective way of talking to people/finding out what's happening. And we tried all sorts of stuff.

An online presence is important of course but means you miss out on those who don't use the internet.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Im involved in various strands of activism but nothing Brexit specific, till now I have neither liked nor disliked the EU enough. I voted remain but sympathise with lexit. I don't mind leaving, I mind stupidity, cluelessness and monoculturalist influence.

Look forward to hearing about those things. For what it's worth I personally am not convinced that the banner or Remain/leave is the way to go in forging unity (nor any political party/position) going forward however much I understand chilango's use of the term to draw a rough picture of the left moving forward in the face of and with the damage done by the Brexit campaign.

 

[emanymton]

Having done a lot of IWCA door knocking in my time, it's definitely the most effective way of talking to people/finding out what's happening. And we tried all sorts of stuff.

An online presence is important of course but means you miss out on those who don't use the internet.

Also to some extent they have to come looking for you.

 

[emanymton]

I'm just a little worried that instead of focusing on ways communities can take action themselves to "do stuff" that it could become a series of protests asking/demanding/begging that the govt "do stuff/stop doing stuff".

Doesn't mean it's not a valid focus, just thinking aloud in the hope that others might share thoughts/experiences.

The NHS isn't (yet) a major topic in my community - housing, education and creaking infrastructures that can't cope with rising population growth is the major one right now.

Right yes I thought so. I agree that there is oftern too much focus on fighting the big battle and 'beating' the government. Which I don't think we are in a position to win. But I think one of the strengths of the NHS as a focus is that oftern there are specific local issues as well besides the national stuff.

Another possible advantage is that it is something that affects us all. A lot of other issues can have limited scope. But on the other hand it affects people somewhat indirectly and can be of less immediate importance than say, housing.

Don't know really just thinking out load really.

 

[brogdale]

I can't imagine that anyone on here would shy away from defending socialised health-care, or disagree that it's the 'left's' strongest campaigning hand...but...fighting to retain it can't really represent the ambition/aspiration of lexit, can it?

 

[BigTom]

Anyway, on topic. What groups are currently doing campaigns around the NHS? Worth making inroads and collaborating with existing stuff? I know The People's Assembly are.

Keep our nhs public and London health emergency I remember from the Andrew lansley health bill campaigns

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I can't imagine that anyone on here would shy away from defending socialised health-care, or disagree that it's the 'left's' strongest campaigning hand...but...fighting to retain it can't really represent the ambition/aspiration of lexit, can it?

I agree - defending the NHS and the right of EU citizens to stay here are both laudable and a priority, but they are both... defensive.

My guess is the the real progressive opportunities will happen when it's time to rewrite the law - on employment rights etc? Which may also be defensive, given the state we're in.

 

[chilango]

...and maybe we have to start with a defensive campaign. BUT from the outset I think we have to have a vision (yuk) of seeking out opportunities to a) do things ourselves and b) encourage a real discussion about what sort of "Britain"* we want...

* "Britain isn't an entity I'm comfortable with using, but I think it's the starting point we've arrived at. I'd want to quickly move the discussion down to a community level, but I suspect Britain is going to be at the centre to start and I wouldn't want to leave the field to the nationalists.

 

[danny la rouge]

Pondering danny la rouge's mention of the Panthers, thinking about housing being an issue addressed by squatting movements and wondering how we can approach the NHS in a similar, empowering manner.

The danger (for me) of a focus on the NHS is that it becomes a campaign of demands rather than a collective "taking no of matters into our own hands" as it were.

Unless Im missing something?(which, as always is quite likely!)

Just thinking out loud...

I think you're right that it seems too defensive. And the point too is that this shouldn't be about manufacturing something to be a focus point, it should be something that's already there that can be supported and amplified. So if it doesn't feel like defending the NHS is it, then it probably isn't.

As I've said, the situation is different here in Scotland: there is a void here too, and it hasn't been filled either, but the dynamic is different - people are talking about whether/when there'll be another indyref. So what the feeling where you are might be is something only you can say from experience.

The thing is to enable and enhance community self confidence, not to be the same bunch of activists taking banners for a walk.

 

[redsquirrel]

danny la rouge to what extent is the Radical Independence Campaign something to organise around up there? Or has it been swallowed up by civic nationalism of the SNP?

 

[danny la rouge]

danny la rouge to what extent is the Radical Independence Campaign something to organise around up there? Or has it been swallowed up by civic nationalism of the SNP?

Pretty much swallowed up. They did some good work during the indyref. They were really the only people who went into working class areas and not only spoke to people, but, crucially, listened too. But they've done little or nothing to keep the community self confidence going since. The focus has been on activists not community. And the energy all seems to have gone into parties, primarily the SNP.

chilango I've been thinking about the Panthers recently, which is why I mentioned them. I think we can learn a lot from them, both positive and negative. But one of the negatives I think is that although they inspired confidence and self activity, it became about becoming a Panther rather than becoming a self managing community. Even to the point of uniforms. This meant that when the leadership disintegrated (another negative lesson: reliance on charismatic leaders), that did too, to a great extent.

 

[ska invita]

...and maybe we have to start with a defensive campaign. BUT from the outset I think we have to have a vision (yuk) of seeking out opportunities to a) do things ourselves and b) encourage a real discussion about what sort of "Britain"* we want...

* "Britain isn't an entity I'm comfortable with using, but I think it's the starting point we've arrived at. I'd want to quickly move the discussion down to a community level, but I suspect Britain is going to be at the centre to start and I wouldn't want to leave the field to the nationalists.

as part of that there's still the job of making the original lexit case...few have ever heard it. The main narrative goes "Trump,Brexit,Le Pen etc" ...commentators conflate them, anti brexit left conflates them and above all Trump, Farage and Le Pen conflate them. There's still a massive task of saying brexit might not belong in that trinity.

 

[brogdale]

...and maybe we have to start with a defensive campaign. BUT from the outset I think we have to have a vision (yuk) of seeking out opportunities to a) do things ourselves and b) encourage a real discussion about what sort of "Britain"* we want...

* "Britain isn't an entity I'm comfortable with using, but I think it's the starting point we've arrived at. I'd want to quickly move the discussion down to a community level, but I suspect Britain is going to be at the centre to start and I wouldn't want to leave the field to the nationalists.

Good points; it's hugely important to defend what little of the 'post-war social contract' survives...but to inspire popular involvement our aspirations obviously have to be more than defensive positions.

As with all effective agitation/organisation one of the real challenges is casting complex meta-processes into meaningful community responses. I agree that "we, the left" need to formulate a vision of what we want (isn't that what socialism's all about?), but in practical terms we have to accept that the neoliberal turn has impacted so deeply on our society/communities that we are, to a large extent, going to find our efforts framed by post-Brexit neoliberal processes. I suppose the trick is finding autonomous action that equates to something more potent than 'sticking plasters' for the wounds caused. Maybe one of our biggest issues is having an honest discussion amongst ourselves about the extent to which self-managed activity can actually resist neoliberal capital, as many of their most damaging processes appear to require fiscal/political responses. Of course such a discussion is all the more difficult given that the state effectively acts a sub-contracted revenue-collection agent of financialised capital.

I know I come at things from a bit of an economist's perspective, but deliberate neoliberal/consolidator state decisions like the sort (below) represent one of the key drivers of so many of the problems for working class communities caused by neoliberalism:-

Check the darker green line representing capital's contribution...as opposed to that of labour.

 

[chilango]

Mulling over in my head some themes for discussion "out there"....

• The Idea of "taking control back". From who? By who? how would this look?
• Nostalgia for a "Lost Britain" (or indeed for the EU we're leaving!). Regardless of whether it ever existed, what are things that (some) people are yearning for? Can they be positive things to create/build in our communities?
• Red Tape vs. Rights. Protecting who from what? Can we "defend ourselves"?

 

[brogdale]

Mulling over in my head some themes for discussion "out there"....

• The Idea of "taking control back". From who? By who? how would this look?
• Nostalgia for a "Lost Britain" (or indeed for the EU we're leaving!). Regardless of whether it ever existed, what are things that (some) people are yearning for? Can they be positive things to create/build in our communities?
• Red Tape vs. Rights. Protecting who from what? Can we "defend ourselves"?

Useful musings!
The 'lost Britain' theme is an interesting one; I'd argue that the notions of 'going back to a better time', that some leave voters bought into, were persuasive and not just in terms of reduced/reversed immigration as cast by the media. Objectively, things really were better for the working class before the neoliberal turn.

 

[chilango]

Useful musings!
The 'lost Britain' theme is an interesting one; I'd argue that the notions of 'going back to a better time', that some leave voters bought into, were persuasive and not just in terms of reduced/reversed immigration as cast by the media. Objectively, things really were better for the working class before the neoliberal turn.

...and in some senses it doesn't matter whether they actually were better, it's the desire for "better" and the iamgining of how this might've looked that provides a good starting point for creating "better", no?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

As long as the NHS is free at the point of contact (and in spite of the huge selling off behind the scenes that's going on, it will be that way for a fair while yet) you'll struggle to get a huge movement going based on it. If someone can take their poorly kids to the Dr's and get the calpol on prescription why should they care what's going on behind the scenes? People haven't got the time or energy to care anymore.

Lack of affordable/council housing and jobs. Show people this isn't the fault of immigrants. That's the challenge as far as I can see. Expose that lie.

 

[brogdale]

As long as the NHS is free at the point of contact (and in spite of the huge selling off behind the scenes that's going on, it will be that way for a fair while yet) you'll struggle to get a huge movement going based on it. If someone can take their poorly kids to the Dr's and get the calpol on prescription why should they care what's going on behind the scenes? People haven't got the time or energy to care anymore.

Lack of affordable/council housing and jobs. Show people this isn't the fault of immigrants. That's the challenge as far as I can see. Expose that lie.

Or their own fault; 'don't earn enough', 'haven't got a good enough job', 'don't work hard enough/enough hours','have enough savings' etc etc to be able to house themselves. That's how the fuckers want it cast.

 

[treelover]

That the establishment is in disarray is an opportunity that isn't currently being used. The CBI, the majority of businesses, the rich and powerful overwhelmingly supported Remain. The government hasn't remotely got its act together. This undeniably opens up space for action.

The problem is that the left is in disarray as well. We need to get our act together quicker than they do.

What's needed is something to focus on, similar to Fight for $15 in the US.

The Bakers Union is doing something like that

but for most its still the TRUMP! Show, hard to believe there is a national 'Save the NHS' demo in two weeks time.

 

[treelover]

Im not sure if the referendum result really changes all that much for the immediate future.

We are still facing a continuing attack on the working class. And the left needs to continue to try and defend against that attack. Now as well all know we haven't been very effective at that recently, but that is probably a bigger topic than this thread. Although one immediate consequence of the referendum is that the pace of the attack might be slowing as the government has to actually sort out Brexit. The nature of some of the struggles might be different but I don't think our overall position is that different.

We have been fighting (and losing) a defensive war for some time and that looks likely to continue.

I do think that if we are to have any positive impact at all we need to get over the referendum and deal with the situation we are in at the moment. How people voted in the referendum is now irrelevant, I think, what matters is what we do now.

Before Christmas, some of us hosted a meeting here on the Crisis In Social Care, it was well organised/publicised, with speakers, food, etc, on a Saturday, about 15 people came, the usual suspects were absent, the liberal left ditto, the public was absent, disabled and sick were absent, though of course there will be many reasons why they could not come, fast forward to January, over 1500 were at a rally against Trump.

 

[treelover]

Im not sure if the referendum result really changes all that much for the immediate future.

We are still facing a continuing attack on the working class. And the left needs to continue to try and defend against that attack. Now as well all know we haven't been very effective at that recently, but that is probably a bigger topic than this thread. Although one immediate consequence of the referendum is that the pace of the attack might be slowing as the government has to actually sort out Brexit. The nature of some of the struggles might be different but I don't think our overall position is that different.

We have been fighting (and losing) a defensive war for some time and that looks likely to continue.

I do think that if we are to have any positive impact at all we need to get over the referendum and deal with the situation we are in at the moment. How people voted in the referendum is now irrelevant, I think, what matters is what we do now.

Not in terms of welfare/social security, Birmingham and Sheffield City Regions have volunteered to be the trial areas for even more invasive(use of GP/NHS/medical records) welfare reforms which will push disabled and sick people into unsuitable work(flling the gaps left by brexit?), DWP is a law unto itself, this raises questions of democracy, who agreed councils/regional leaders could do this, was there a vote?, fairness and equity, how can many of the DASP work?

no sign yet of the left/civil society doing anything about it.

 

[treelover]

I was about to say something along the lines of try and get some purchase on events, intervene where it looks like rights will be lost and communities screwed. But that's not the starting point for me. What's more important for anybody on the left, whether they think in electoral terms or not is to learn the lessons of how we got to this point; why there is now virtually no link at all between the left(s) and the working class; why there is a widespread feeling of abandonment in a neo-liberal world. If there's going to be anything at all it has to be built up from real life and real communities. Must say though, I'm not very optimistic.

I was about to say something along the lines of try and get some purchase on events, intervene where it looks like rights will be lost and communities screwed. But that's not the starting point for me. What's more important for anybody on the left, whether they think in electoral terms or not is to learn the lessons of how we got to this point; why there is now virtually no link at all between the left(s) and the working class; why there is a widespread feeling of abandonment in a neo-liberal world. If there's going to be anything at all it has to be built up from real life and real communities. Must say though, I'm not very optimistic.

A US style community organising outfit ACORN has set up renters unions across the UK, with paid staff, its a good project, but very middle class at the moment, but imagine if that had been self started by working class people

 

[chilango]

I think we should also forget about "the left" existing as a readymade vehicle or mass. Sure salvage/use any useful networks, ideas, traditions, resources etc. etc. but surely we've all learnt by now not to expect anything more from 'it'?

 

[treelover]

An early rhetorical necessity is to detatch a perception that scrutiny and critique of this tory form of Brexit equates with a rejection or blocking of Brexit per se, that we are "anti democratic" and all that "will of the people" myth.

What ought to be a simple distinction (made by Plaid and The Greens) turns out to be something that "journalists" tend to assume us too thick to comprehend (if they even comprehend it themselves).

It's bizarre how stupid "debate" has become. By such means, there has been a capitulation to fascist infected here-and-now brexit by people too scared to stand up to the obvious. Leaving doesnt mean you just leave ASAP and let the tories run the whole show without consultation. Oh wait, it does. So in many ways its too late for now and only a left or left-ish victory at a general election will really have a hope of sorting things.

In the meantime, I think some of the suggestions on this thread are reasonable enough. We especially need to protect friends, colleagues and comrades from Europe from having their freedom suppressed by the monoculturalists.

As for opposing the virulent fascism and racism around this topic, perhaps it would have been helpful if fewer people hadn't insisted for so long that it was out of order to say racism is racist (often one was accused of "shouting" it).

Naive leftists, liberals and conservative apologists have created an atmosphere where even the most disgusting bigotry will see hoardes of privileged whitesplainer chin-strokers pondering "hmm...but is it really racist?". Throw in some cut and paste distraction about "listening to concerns". The vast majority of these dont risk being victims of racism, so it's ok for them.

It all goes alongside the age old bleat of the racist themselves (HOW DARE YOU SAY I'M RACIST - YOU ARE CLOSING DOWN DEBATE blah blah)

Saying racism is racist has long been the third wire of UK political discourse. It would be nice to see that trend receed but so many people have invested in it for such a long time.

Come in CRI, your brethren is here.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Come in CRI, your brethren is here.

Can you not do this here please ? This thread really doesn't need to descend into baiting.

 

[crossthebreeze]

As long as the NHS is free at the point of contact (and in spite of the huge selling off behind the scenes that's going on, it will be that way for a fair while yet) you'll struggle to get a huge movement going based on it. If someone can take their poorly kids to the Dr's and get the calpol on prescription why should they care what's going on behind the scenes? People haven't got the time or energy to care anymore.

Lack of affordable/council housing and jobs. Show people this isn't the fault of immigrants. That's the challenge as far as I can see. Expose that lie.

I think there are rumblings of discontent around the nhs - lots of people having difficulty getting gp appointments, spending hours on trollies in a&e, difficulties getting mental health treatment, social care cuts leading to increased hospitalisations and bed blocking, proposed closures of rural hospitals, people getting letters from private contractors saying their medical records have been reviewed and their medication is being reduced without being seen, etc.