Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
A rally in London isn't likely to reach beyond the current leftie hinterland, as such it's pointless. But lets give things time to get going before we right EiE off as 'bizarre and shit' eh?
Cost of Living Crisis: Enough is Enough Campaign
- Thread starter Smokeandsteam
- Start date
A rally in London isn't likely to reach beyond the current leftie hinterland, as such it's pointless. But lets give things time to get going before we right EiE off as 'bizarre and shit' eh?
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
I was only referring to the rally in that way. I'd like them to do better is all.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
My plan is to wait for the notification about local groups/activity and go along to it armed with some ideas.
Thistlewaite
Member
After the last decade of riots, Brexit, Covid and recessions, crisis' the Tory era and so much more, it is evident that nothing is going to change. It sounds defeatist I know but that is how I feel at the moment.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Everything is changing, all the time.
The question is in which direction the change goes.
Thistlewaite
Member
I can't remember a time where the country was just "settled" and prospering. Like literally, I can't remember. I hope you are right though.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
No one can removed that . We live in a class society .
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I think the thing is is that this is new alliance and it’s going to take some time for a clearer direction, hopefully membership will have an impact of this . Both the RMT and CWU are also running a string of national and sectional disputes .
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Dunno pal , balance of forces at the end of the day isn’t it ?
What are they bringing to the table? Rallies , petitions, A to B marches?
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Depends what the members bring imo. and then see where we go. I thought you'd be big on rank and file / organising from below sort of stuff? Open door at the moment.
From what I'm hearing there's not going to be a lot of bottom up democracy. Each local branch will be controlled by a steering committee of union reps.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Have to fight for it then. I've signed up for it and I have a mate who knows one of the Fans Supporting Foodbanks people very well , I'll ask him if he knows anything about the structures.
See what he comes back with. This is hearsay from mates in and around it
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Mick Lynch and Eddie Dempsey talk about EiE in this from about 37.30 onwards. Lynch’s comments about avoiding vanguardism, sectarianism and outsiders to parachute in to tell working class communities what to do is particularly interesting and encouraging:
How is this not vanguardist?
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
I watched that again last night, wanted to get my head round what they said about the Don't Pay stuff.
It's very weak, bordering on disruptive, and critical without it being comradely so.
Lynch talks about doing something 'directly' rather than writing cancelling your direct debit and writing an angry letter. (He does then say he doesn't understand it all. Well yes, obviously, so then he should shut up, or say something generally supportive and move on.) He says we need more instant responses such as stopping people being cut off and a dynamic program of resistance. Well yes, but I don't imagine Don't Pay would disagree with stopping people being cut off or 'dynamic resistance'. And people need to not pay to get cut off. And this is a good attempt to collectivise and politicize that non-payment. Anyway EiE is calling rallies with MPs and Union heads speaking, and has posted a letter to Johnson to recall Parliament as their first things. How the fuck do they fit into this 'dynamic resistance'? I agree it's the local groups that might swing it, but the decades of these kind of things being a stitch up by bureaucrats of the Labour party and unions is going to be hard pressed to stop.
Dempsey's comments are just shit tbh, not even worth addressing.
Rallies; big rallies, small rallies, rallies everywhere Lynch says. But what's the strategy beyond that? How do rallies turn into something more? Their strategy is basically to get the Labour party into power. That's all it is on a strategic level, and I think now that's not looking like such a great option for them I think they're lost really and it shows when they're speaking about this. I don't mean the more dispute level stuff, the (well, at least the RMT/ASLEF/few others) can do that, but the wider political/social change level.
E2A: Just watched it again. TBF Lynch does talk about local/commnunity groups being set-up to do residents association/etc. kinda stuff. That's fair enough, but he does know that stuff isn't something EiE is inventing, and that is happening already in loads of places? He makes it sound like EiE is going to start that all over the country? And what does he think they'll do? Quite possibly stuff like Don't Pay locally which he's just slagged off. Anyway, that's the stuff that has legs, it feels like they're doing the other stuff like rallies as that's what they always do. They'll have Corbyn speaking at a rally outside Parliament next ffs.
They're really shit on this tbh. Why the fuck didn't they come out with something more? It would have been very easy to say something like, "Yes, it's brilliant, we fully support it. In fact we'll be encouraging our members to join. And community and neighbourhood stuff like that can go alongside people struggling at work, in fact we need people to be organising outside work as well, etc."
The real reasons why have been mentioned by smokedout somewhere. The unions are slow moving, bureaucratic, full of (mostly male) egos, are antagonistic toward each other, and really struggle to engage and be dynamic or do anything they haven't done before. Yes, they are hamstrung by legislation etc. but ffs they need to start taking risks. If they can't or won't push harder on this now when the fuck will they ever do so? Unions should be meeting together and could be calling for all members to strike on 1st October, for a week, then 2 weeks 1st November, etc. or something like that. They'd push Labour to take a stance (either with or against them), they'd be a new PM with a weaker and divided Tory party. Bills and life will have got much harder for people and would continue to do so over the winter. I fully think they could force an election at the very least, at best we'd push things to a confrontational situation for once.
It's very weak, bordering on disruptive, and critical without it being comradely so.
Lynch talks about doing something 'directly' rather than writing cancelling your direct debit and writing an angry letter. (He does then say he doesn't understand it all. Well yes, obviously, so then he should shut up, or say something generally supportive and move on.) He says we need more instant responses such as stopping people being cut off and a dynamic program of resistance. Well yes, but I don't imagine Don't Pay would disagree with stopping people being cut off or 'dynamic resistance'. And people need to not pay to get cut off. And this is a good attempt to collectivise and politicize that non-payment. Anyway EiE is calling rallies with MPs and Union heads speaking, and has posted a letter to Johnson to recall Parliament as their first things. How the fuck do they fit into this 'dynamic resistance'? I agree it's the local groups that might swing it, but the decades of these kind of things being a stitch up by bureaucrats of the Labour party and unions is going to be hard pressed to stop.
Dempsey's comments are just shit tbh, not even worth addressing.
Rallies; big rallies, small rallies, rallies everywhere Lynch says. But what's the strategy beyond that? How do rallies turn into something more? Their strategy is basically to get the Labour party into power. That's all it is on a strategic level, and I think now that's not looking like such a great option for them I think they're lost really and it shows when they're speaking about this. I don't mean the more dispute level stuff, the (well, at least the RMT/ASLEF/few others) can do that, but the wider political/social change level.
E2A: Just watched it again. TBF Lynch does talk about local/commnunity groups being set-up to do residents association/etc. kinda stuff. That's fair enough, but he does know that stuff isn't something EiE is inventing, and that is happening already in loads of places? He makes it sound like EiE is going to start that all over the country? And what does he think they'll do? Quite possibly stuff like Don't Pay locally which he's just slagged off. Anyway, that's the stuff that has legs, it feels like they're doing the other stuff like rallies as that's what they always do. They'll have Corbyn speaking at a rally outside Parliament next ffs.
They're really shit on this tbh. Why the fuck didn't they come out with something more? It would have been very easy to say something like, "Yes, it's brilliant, we fully support it. In fact we'll be encouraging our members to join. And community and neighbourhood stuff like that can go alongside people struggling at work, in fact we need people to be organising outside work as well, etc."
The real reasons why have been mentioned by smokedout somewhere. The unions are slow moving, bureaucratic, full of (mostly male) egos, are antagonistic toward each other, and really struggle to engage and be dynamic or do anything they haven't done before. Yes, they are hamstrung by legislation etc. but ffs they need to start taking risks. If they can't or won't push harder on this now when the fuck will they ever do so? Unions should be meeting together and could be calling for all members to strike on 1st October, for a week, then 2 weeks 1st November, etc. or something like that. They'd push Labour to take a stance (either with or against them), they'd be a new PM with a weaker and divided Tory party. Bills and life will have got much harder for people and would continue to do so over the winter. I fully think they could force an election at the very least, at best we'd push things to a confrontational situation for once.
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Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
A few points in reply to the posts by LDC and others above:
1. I don’t agree with them on Don’t Pay either. But it’s their view not a demand of the EiE.
In fact and in reality, once local groups are formed Don’t Pay will inevitably become a key issue for EiE, and one where, as I’ve said earlier on the thread, a popular moral economy revolt could rapidly develop organically.
That said, Dempsey is spot on to highlight fact that 4 million households are on pre-pay meters for whom ‘Don’t Pay’ is not an option.
2. On a general or generalised strike the RMT has already said it would support one. It’s already taking strike action across the sector it’s organised in. Lynch has said repeatedly that they are up for coordination with other unions. If the starting place is to attack the unions supporting a general strike rather than the TUC and those who don’t we aren’t going to get far. For those of us in unions the starting point is to pressure our own leaderships. Without any disrespect intended to the RMT a union of less than 100,000 can’t dictate to the other unions.
3. It’s wide of the mark to claim that Lynch and Dempsey don’t have any ideas bar getting labour in to power. Both have been clear that one of motivations behind EiE is an understanding that Labour are an irrelevance at best or actively hostile to the interests of the working class. Also, as LDC notes, Lynch gives a series of excellent examples of what community and workplace actions might take place. He also makes clear that the demands and campaigns need to come from and be owned by the community itself and not paper sellers from outside. On that basis alone this makes the EiE district from the usual limited TU campaigns.
4. On the lack of detail about what comes after the rallies my interpretation is that a) if there was a prescriptive answer they’d rightly be attacked for top down command and control and b) working out what to do, what has the most impact and most support etc should be left to those on the ground locally.
5. In the interview - before the section on EiE iirc -Lynch talks in some detail about the English working class tradition and it’s emphasis on working class independence, self sufficiency and it’s methods of organisation. So, I agree with Chilango, this is a form of recuperation by Lynch, but of the re-remembering kind rather than as a means of diffusion or incorporatation.
1. I don’t agree with them on Don’t Pay either. But it’s their view not a demand of the EiE.
In fact and in reality, once local groups are formed Don’t Pay will inevitably become a key issue for EiE, and one where, as I’ve said earlier on the thread, a popular moral economy revolt could rapidly develop organically.
That said, Dempsey is spot on to highlight fact that 4 million households are on pre-pay meters for whom ‘Don’t Pay’ is not an option.
2. On a general or generalised strike the RMT has already said it would support one. It’s already taking strike action across the sector it’s organised in. Lynch has said repeatedly that they are up for coordination with other unions. If the starting place is to attack the unions supporting a general strike rather than the TUC and those who don’t we aren’t going to get far. For those of us in unions the starting point is to pressure our own leaderships. Without any disrespect intended to the RMT a union of less than 100,000 can’t dictate to the other unions.
3. It’s wide of the mark to claim that Lynch and Dempsey don’t have any ideas bar getting labour in to power. Both have been clear that one of motivations behind EiE is an understanding that Labour are an irrelevance at best or actively hostile to the interests of the working class. Also, as LDC notes, Lynch gives a series of excellent examples of what community and workplace actions might take place. He also makes clear that the demands and campaigns need to come from and be owned by the community itself and not paper sellers from outside. On that basis alone this makes the EiE district from the usual limited TU campaigns.
4. On the lack of detail about what comes after the rallies my interpretation is that a) if there was a prescriptive answer they’d rightly be attacked for top down command and control and b) working out what to do, what has the most impact and most support etc should be left to those on the ground locally.
5. In the interview - before the section on EiE iirc -Lynch talks in some detail about the English working class tradition and it’s emphasis on working class independence, self sufficiency and it’s methods of organisation. So, I agree with Chilango, this is a form of recuperation by Lynch, but of the re-remembering kind rather than as a means of diffusion or incorporatation.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Dempsey pointing out 4 million households aren't on DDs but pre-payment meters is just moaning dressed up as analysis/criticism though. No one campaign or activity is going to encompass everyone. I mean look at the RMT strikes, it's a minority of people work in the railways, would it be fair criticism to say well, not everyone drives a train?
He could have used that to make a good political point and say well some are going to struggle on energy bills, we have some fighting high rents/poor landlords, some conditions at work, but underlies them all is XYZ.
Anyway, it was only a pub interview, like you say hopefully stuff will change and change for the better quickly. I don't have much faith with (most of) the unions though, even leaving aside all the more 'political' criticisms of them, my union (GMB) is so astronomically shit at doing anything I think it unlikely they'll do anything useful. On my local reps chat recently the branch head had a big rant about how apathetic members were and how most voted Tory anyway, to then be ripped into by someone that said last time he did loads of work to get people to vote and then the union cancelled the strike right at the last moment without telling anyone, so it's no wonder people are cynical and less interested in the union now.
How to keep the assorted leftie cranks from fucking up the local groups? That will be a challenge imo.
He could have used that to make a good political point and say well some are going to struggle on energy bills, we have some fighting high rents/poor landlords, some conditions at work, but underlies them all is XYZ.
Anyway, it was only a pub interview, like you say hopefully stuff will change and change for the better quickly. I don't have much faith with (most of) the unions though, even leaving aside all the more 'political' criticisms of them, my union (GMB) is so astronomically shit at doing anything I think it unlikely they'll do anything useful. On my local reps chat recently the branch head had a big rant about how apathetic members were and how most voted Tory anyway, to then be ripped into by someone that said last time he did loads of work to get people to vote and then the union cancelled the strike right at the last moment without telling anyone, so it's no wonder people are cynical and less interested in the union now.
How to keep the assorted leftie cranks from fucking up the local groups? That will be a challenge imo.
ska invita
back on the other side
What do you mean by recuperation?
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
andysays
Love and solidarity
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Ah, it wasn't just me then.
I thought maybe it meant something like reformism...
Kind of. It's a term used by the situationists and then by lots of ultra-left types to mean a process where a radical project or politics is taken onboard by the establishment (or similar) and then some elements of it are used, but without the radical content, often just the imagery or appearance of the original thing. It's a key concept in explaining how rebellion is defanged and beaten in his Society of the Spectacle. Kind of what happens to pretty much anything under capitalism. Also often done by the more reformist elements in a movement, often unwittingly.
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8ball
Maximum Facepalm
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
The fact that over 4 million households are on pre-paid meters is a significant issue is my view., although it doesn't automatically render the 'Don't Pay' campaign 'middle class'.
The position of the other unions on EiE is hard to work out at present. The CWU GS and Lynch/Dempsey seem to be the trade unions leaders driving it, but only the former union is on their website as a supporter. Lynch has mentioned Sharon Graham and Gary Smith as sharing the same analysis as them but in our Branch we've heard nothing yet from Unite about it.
Couldn't agree more on the last sentence. If they swarm in and seek to divert local groups into their pet campaigns or subject them to lengthy 'interventions' and sectarian point scoring then they'll drive people away in droves. Listening to Lynch's comments he also appears to share the concern.
oryx
Sitting on the bok of the day
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Feels like bad faith and ill-thought through comments to me. When did you last hear criticism of an campaign, strike or other issues along the lines of, "Well only 23 million households can do it, so let's not bother cos not all 27 million houses can be involved the same".
So what do you suggest? No single issue or form of activity is going to cover everyone exactly the same. It's like saying don't do something on landlords cos not everyone rents. And currently energy is clearly a massive one currently, so to some extent it had to be the one chosen to attack on. Yes, not everyone can 'not pay' but they can still be a part of the campaign. And the campaign winning will benefit them massively. And they can leaflet, agitate, go to meetings, etc etc. If they get cut off they can organise to resist any debt collection, bailliffs, etc. I think it's just not a great line to go on about, shows they haven't really thought it through tbh.
Also there's a bit of a pile-on from various quarters onto Don't Pay, from leftie conspiracy theorists, idpolitics types, tankies, cranks, Daily Mail 'expose', etc. so bear in mind criticism that feels like it's taking angles from them isn't going to come across very comradely atm.
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