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Blimey, for once the UK is 'currently' doing OK compared to those others, France & Italy have fairly similiar populations to the UK, Spain is over 20m less, adjust that for population, and Spain would be way up.

What a mess it is across Europe. :(
 
Blimey, for once the UK is 'currently' doing OK compared to those others, France & Italy have fairly similiar populations to the UK, Spain is over 20m less, adjust that for population, and Spain would be way up.

What a mess it is across Europe. :(

And now New York isn't messing around keeping schools open when strong measures seem pertinent!

 
Anyone got access to the Times story about Covid having been in Italy since September ‘19? I can only see the headline.

Sorry, no, but there's some grim posts updating about the situation on this page of the Italy thread -

 
Anyone got access to the Times story about Covid having been in Italy since September ‘19? I can only see the headline.

Not the times article, but the journal article is here

The % of positive cases in September 2019 of those sampled is rather high (14%), which might suggest some sort of laboratory contamination, rather than being real. On the other hand this wasn't a random sample, but from people participating in a lung cancer trial presumably spending quite a bit of time in hospitals, so it could have coincided with an early cluster.
 
Blimey, for once the UK is 'currently' doing OK compared to those others, France & Italy have fairly similiar populations to the UK, Spain is over 20m less, adjust that for population, and Spain would be way up.

What a mess it is across Europe. :(
I’ve read several articles this week on comparisons with other countries . I always thought the R rate was key but these articles deal in total numbers / deaths and then infections/ deaths per thousand . What’s the best measurement?
 
Not the times article, but the journal article is here

The % of positive cases in September 2019 of those sampled is rather high (14%), which might suggest some sort of laboratory contamination, rather than being real. On the other hand this wasn't a random sample, but from people participating in a lung cancer trial presumably spending quite a bit of time in hospitals, so it could have coincided with an early cluster.
That study reports that 11.6% (111 out of 959) of the samples tested positive for antibodies against SARS-CoV-2 (not 14%). Samples were collected between September 2019 and February 2020.

The 14% figure they mention is the percentage of samples collected in September 2019 that tested positive (23/162). For October, the figure was 16.3% (27/166).

Their results are supported by other studies they mention, e.g. finding evidence of the virus in sewage samples from Milan and Turin in December 2019. I don't think there's any suggestion of lab contamination (but I've never done that kind of lab work, so I don't know how often that's likely to be a significant factor).
 
Blimey, for once the UK is 'currently' doing OK compared to those others, France & Italy have fairly similiar populations to the UK, Spain is over 20m less, adjust that for population, and Spain would be way up.

What a mess it is across Europe. :(
One caveat there. There are clearly differences in counting methods. France recorded far more hospitalisations than the UK in the first wave but significantly fewer deaths, for instance. I know Wales records hospitalistations differently from England, leading to higher apparent numbers for Wales. I suspect something similar is going on when comparing countries across Europe.
 
I’ve read several articles this week on comparisons with other countries . I always thought the R rate was key but these articles deal in total numbers / deaths and then infections/ deaths per thousand . What’s the best measurement?
The very best measurement, which has the most time lag on it, is excess deaths. That's the real story. It avoids arguments about dying 'with covid' or 'of covid', it avoids differences in recording (Russia, for instance, excludes some deaths that others include; Belgium tends to include every possible and probable as well as certainties), and it captures the full toll taken by lockdowns, etc.

Not every country has good enough records to do that, but most European countries do.

UK is currently at c.70,000 total excess deaths for this year, most of those in the first wave.

Comparisons for here and now aren't easy, but deaths recorded over the last week, adjusted for population, is a pretty good measure of where a place is at, bearing in mind that there are differences in recording practices, so it's only a very rough indication. Most of Europe is in a right mess, many places far worse this time than in the first wave in some places. That much is clear.
 
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So is that saying it could have originated in Italy?
Not necessarily. Just that it seems to have been circulating there and perhaps elsewhere before December 2019; well before the first known case in Italy, in February 2020, at least. They also cite the case in Paris of positive test samples (taken in December 2019), and a Harvard study of satellite data from above Wuhan, showing an increase in traffic to hospitals from some time in autumn 2019. So perhaps it might have been in other countries, too.

Edited as I meant to quote Froggy, rather than myself :rolleyes:
 
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The 14% figure they mention is the percentage of samples collected in September 2019 that tested positive (23/162). For October, the figure was 16.3% (27/166).

That was what I said, 14% of the September 2019 samples were positive, which is a rather high number, and would indicate a significant outbreak at a considerably earlier stage, a long way from Wuhan. In this context there is a big difference between Sept 2019 and Dec 2019, especially with the numbers implied by this study. FWIW the satellite study from Wuhan has been pretty widely criticized, even though it was published, and they do seem to have quite heavily cherry-picked their data.
 
That was what I said, 14% of the September 2019 samples were positive,
My bad - I misread what you wrote.
which is a rather high number, and would indicate a significant outbreak at a considerably earlier stage, a long way from Wuhan. In this context there is a big difference between Sept 2019 and Dec 2019, especially with the numbers implied by this study.
Yup. It would need to be replicated.
FWIW the satellite study from Wuhan has been pretty widely criticized, even though it was published, and they do seem to have quite heavily cherry-picked their data.
That... doesn't seem very surprising.
 
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I’ve read several articles this week on comparisons with other countries . I always thought the R rate was key but these articles deal in total numbers / deaths and then infections/ deaths per thousand . What’s the best measurement?
What do you want to measure and why?
 
Screen Shot 2020-11-19 at 17.30.29.jpg

A bit of an overview of the current state of things in Europe. Total deaths normalised by population.

NB France has now overtaken Sweden. And Sweden is not so far off the EU average.
 
A wrongful death lawsuit tied to COVID-19 infections at Tyson Foods’ largest pork processing plant accuses the meatpacking giant of ordering employees to come to work while supervisors privately bet money on how many would get infected with the deadly coronavirus.
remember: donald forced employees such as these back to work... then management had ghoul pools betting on staff getting sick... from which five employees died from COVID.

 
If you look at Italy's numbers, they've got around 4k infections currently. It's taken 11 days to get there from the position we're in.

If you look at how they got there, their figures grew by about 40% a day for about half that time, then 20%-25% since then.

We're currently growing at 40% a day, so we're matching Italy at the equivalent point in time in their outbreak.

I plotted these numbers and this is what it looks like for the UK:

Friday, 6 March 2020163
Saturday, 7 March 2020228
Sunday, 8 March 2020319
Monday, 9 March 2020447
Tuesday, 10 March 2020626
Wednesday, 11 March 2020877
Thursday, 12 March 20201227
Friday, 13 March 20201473
Saturday, 14 March 20201767
Sunday, 15 March 20202121
Monday, 16 March 20202545
Tuesday, 17 March 20203054
Wednesday, 18 March 20203665
Thursday, 19 March 20204398
Friday, 20 March 20205277
Saturday, 21 March 20206333
Sunday, 22 March 20207599
Monday, 23 March 20209119
Tuesday, 24 March 202010943
Wednesday, 25 March 202013131
Thursday, 26 March 202015758

Obviously lots of caveats on this: This assumes we don't do anything and carry on as we are now. We know that if things get this bad then additional measures will be taken.

It also assumed that the growth rate stays at 20% after an initial fall, but we only have Italy to go on there. Our growth rates might be higher or lower. We don't know.

etc., etc.

I am quoting this post that you made on March 6th because of tonights programme about the failures in approach and timing of the lockdown 1 decisions. It was rather heavily focussed on the modelling side of the story, and was nothing like the full story as a result, although glimpses of several other sorts of establishment/expert/orthodox failure were on brief display throughout the programme too. Anyway, one modeller made clear that he was the one who finally looked at the right data and realised their 5-6 day doubling time estimates were wrong and that it was more like 3 days. That was on March 17th. 11 days after your post! And 11 days was also your estimate at the time for how far behind Italy we were. Its a shame the experts were 11 days behind you!

Plenty of people came across in a bad way in the programme, as they bloody well should. Including a behavioural scientist who tells the programme all sorts of reasonable things about her thoughts when watching mass sports gatherings, that they should not be happening, but is then shown in a news clip of the time repeating the government justifications for keeping such events going. And then tells this programme that she said that not because she believed it, but for reasons of maintaining public faith in the governments stated approach of the time. Well fucking done, that's exactly why gobby people like me did not take advice to 'trust the government' at early stages of this pandemic as being advice that was even fit to wipe my arse with. And one of the reasons I spent a whole load of time learning about pandemics many years ago, because narrow, stale, dogmatic, limited, dont rock the boat experts cannot be relied upon to know and tell it like it is at the best of times, let alone in moments of crisis.

 
Weekend restrictions now applied ( initially for two weks) to the South . All bars/cafes and restuarants to close at 1pm Saturday to 6.00 am Monday and a general confinement at home during the same timespan except for work/medical/exercise. Some shops are open at the weekend. General message is 'No its not illegal to go out and buy bread or milk but please stockup so you dont have to' . Local cafes are doing lunch from 10.00 am Saturday to takeaway. Cafes and bars also have to close at 11.pm during the week. The left parties ie left Bloc and PCP voted against the renewal of the State of Emergency saying the economic package wasn't sufficient, still got passed though.
 
Well I guess this is what happens in a country that has avoided really high incidence levels and takes protective measures and outbreak contact tracing really seriously, and then someone lies about a detail of their behaviour....



South Australia decided to enter a state-wide lockdown based on a lie told by a man with Covid-19 about his link to a pizza shop, police say.
The strict lockdown began on Wednesday after the state detected 36 infections, including its first locally acquired cases since April.
But this would have been avoided if the man had told the truth, that he worked shifts at the shop, officials said.
He said he only went there to buy a pizza.
This misinformation prompted health officials to assume the man had caught the virus during a very brief exposure and that the strain must be a highly contagious one.
"To say I am fuming is an understatement," state Premier Steven Marshall told reporters on Friday.
 
France are being more cautious and realistic with their easing of things by the sounds of it, now that they think they have peaked, although I cannot fully compare their plans with Englands until I see which regions are in which tiers in England.


 
Portugal now has a regional four tier system in addition to four national states ( which affect the constitution). The weekend stay at home ( we only had one ) now lifted from the Algarve . Restrictions imposed on travelling across counties for the public holidays first week of December . Everything reviewed forthrightly .
 
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