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Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

Why would another lockdown be warranted if we have the ability to vaccinate against the new variants?
It takes time to identify new variants - made more difficult / slower without mass testing ...
It takes time to "tweak" & test new vaccines to cope with said new variants ...

tbh, if the current new variant shows signs of being able to evade the protection offered by existing vaccines then I won't be the only one that restarts mask wearing and other measures may follow depending on the severity of the new wave. Yes, I've already had my autumn covid booster and get the flu jab tomorrow [25th Sept 2023].
 
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Its true that the timing of updated vaccines doesnt match the pace of the evolution of the virus so far.

But its also true that the population immunity picture is not expected to go all the way back down to the 'totally naive population' situation that caused this thing to be a pandemic in the first place.

Lockdowns were an exceptional response. Even if we have evolution and waves that every so many years resemble covids equivalent of 'a very bad flu season' we wouldnt expect that sort of response, not unless it had already been demonstrated via hospital doom in another country that we really were all the way back to the equivalent of square one. I'm a 'never say never' sort of person but there is absolutely nothing showing up that would cause me to start waving around that scenario at this stage. And I say that even though we cannot yet say whether the magnitude of covids equivalent to a bad flu season will be similar or much worse than what we are used to from bad flu waves.

Plus even if we somehow ended up back in such a scenario, one of the other reasons we had lockdowns to start with was that authorities could not convincingly 'be seen to be doing something' of sufficient magnitude. Vaccines, even if they suffer from some reduction in effectiveness over time, will continue to be something authorities can point to on the 'doing something convincing' front, and thus really strong alternative 'somethings' will not be on the agenda.

In terms of other, much less drastic measures, it is questionable as to whether a country like this one is even prepared to bring back some of those. They dont want to spend the money on mass testing, they dont want the knock on effects of decreased economic activity if people change their behaviours quite radically, they dont even like to make masks mandatory in settings far beyond healthcare.

All the same, I suspect that if they saw signs of a very bad wave coming, they would still eventually do some of those lesser things, especially when if the wave timing coincides with winter NHS pressure. But we'd expect it to mostly be voluntary and a big chunk of it would be done via a change to the mood music (and the BBC etc will make this change of mood obvious if such a time arrives).

With the particular variant thats been detected in recent months, it made the authorities nervous enough to change the timing of the vaccination programme, but it is not close to changing the 'learning to live with covid' and business as usual approach. Far from it, as the following recent BBC article demonstrates:


I cant be quoting the whole thing so I'll just use the final bit to illustrate the normalisation of covid. This sort of reporting represents both the not very subtle normalisation agenda of the authorities, and the very real experiences of many people who catch the virus these days, and how those two things align much better now than they did in the pre-vaccine/pre most people having already caught it before era:

Sam, an IT worker from north London, managed to pick up infection number three on a trip to Turkey with her family this month.

"The first time was really horrible, the second time it felt like flu, but by the third time I didn't really think about it," she says.

"I just had a stinker of a cold and was all bunged up."

This is maybe what scientists meant when, at the very start of the pandemic, we were told that, one day, we would have to learn to live with Covid.

The virus is not going away.

But perhaps it is starting to become part of the background to our everyday lives.

When those sort of sentiments were chucked around by the powers that be and their media salespeople at the start of the pandemic, it demonstrated the cold calculations and priorities of the establishment here. And at that time they totally fucked it up, couldnt make that agenda work, couldnt make the hospitalisation numbers game work, couldnt sell it effectively, couldnt get enough journalists to buy into it, couldnt stop people contrasting our approach with measures taken by other countries, and they came over as absurd and monstrous and totally out of touch with reality for trying. But abandoning it was only ever going to be temporary, there would come a time where it became an easier sell and where such a stance was arguably more in touch with reality. We reached that stage a long time ago, and a new variant with some worrying properties on paper is not going to erase that quickly. Only if the most extreme eventualities arose would it even being to significantly erode this.

And whats missing from the picture painted by that bit of the article that I quoted is the same thing thats always missing or heavily deemphasised with things like seasonal flu. Emphasis is placed on what the virus means to the majority, not to the vulnerable who are still dying from it. People are not encouraged to be well informed about how many people died of covid this year, for example. And even if they were well informed about this, I doubt it would change attitudes significantly, a concerted campaign with very different mood music and the suggestion of a much broader period of looming doom would be required for that.
 
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Having said all that, opportunities for establishment absurdity to be on display via this virus still exist. Module 2 of the public inquiry, which will look at the fucked up response the first time around, is about to start in October. Theres a chance that if these public evidence sessions coincide with high levels of infection in the community, the proceedings could end up being disrupted by covid at times, so they could even end up doing an unintended practical demonstration of lessons still not having been learnt.
 
And two of the most obvious flaws with this approach are the ongoing fragility of the NHS, and the still unknown longer term implications of long covid.

That BBC article does mention the long covid stuff, but typically the point just dangles there in relative isolation, it isnt allowed to get in the way of the cascade of experts they lined up to give a generalised picture of relative normality and decreasing disease implications for most.

I've got no predictions about that longer term long covid side of things, not when it comes to future implications for the population and the country overall in the decades ahead. There are some worrying studies, but they still cant offer me a solid glimpse of the future. When it comes to the implications for individuals who are badly affected its the same as every other covid impact - its grim and life changing (or life ending) for those affected, and that makes me sad and angry, but the rest of society has a way of getting on with life regardless.
 
NB, don't know if anyone's mentioned, but do check the expiry date of your Covid tests. I bought a pack of 6 last month in superdrug and when I opened them gsv noticed they were best before 8 October 2023; as it happens, gsv tested positive yesterday and between him and the kids we used those up in time, but you could be using ones that are out of date if you don't check. I think a lot of places have stopped giving a shit and are stocking old tests.
 
NB, don't know if anyone's mentioned, but do check the expiry date of your Covid tests. I bought a pack of 6 last month in superdrug and when I opened them gsv noticed they were best before 8 October 2023; as it happens, gsv tested positive yesterday and between him and the kids we used those up in time, but you could be using ones that are out of date if you don't check. I think a lot of places have stopped giving a shit and are stocking old tests.
in the US they have just extended the validity date for a whole bunch of tests by 2 years since there is a lot more known about them now then when they first came out.

No idea if something similar is going to happen here.
 
As it happens, just bought another set at Superdrug and they were fine this time, up to 2025 (there is in fact a slot where you can see the date on the inner packages), so maybe we were just unlucky. Still seems worth checking, though.

Have watched son who seems a bit throaty test himself and he's negative as he was when he did it himself yesterday but I don't think he was putting the swab in far enough so I will do the testing on him tomorrow morning before school to check it's just not him not doing it properly.

Going to be a nervous 12 days - we're supposed to go to Santorini for gsv's 50th birthday on 13th, so I really don't want to catch it in the next week; OTOH, I have been away myself and probably missed his most infectious period and at least this week is warm and we can keep the house ventilated (and I can sleep in the spare room). But frustrating not being able to have cuddle now I'm back.
 
When people in articles like this one say 'covid will continue to surprise us', what they actually mean is that some of their lazy assumptions havent borne fruit yet. In this case the idea that things would settle into a tidy seasonal pattern has yet to resemble reality.

 
When people in articles like this one say 'covid will continue to surprise us', what they actually mean is that some of their lazy assumptions havent borne fruit yet. In this case the idea that things would settle into a tidy seasonal pattern has yet to resemble reality.

I was surprised a friend of mine got sent an invite for a Covid injection in May - which he had at the Ackerman Health Centre in north Brixton.
Then again in September - where he was give another Covid injection at Pulse Pharmacy 310 Clapham Road Stockwell

Doctor is this normal? More to the point is it harmful - or even useful?
 
I was surprised a friend of mine got sent an invite for a Covid injection in May - which he had at the Ackerman Health Centre in north Brixton.
Then again in September - where he was give another Covid injection at Pulse Pharmacy 310 Clapham Road Stockwell

Doctor is this normal? More to the point is it harmful - or even useful?

It is very (very) unlikely to be harmful, and probably is useful, albeit the amount of ‘use’ is possibly minimal. We are still unsure of the decay rate of immunisation protection, though I believe it is detectable on the order of 4 to 6 months (so May to September). Is your friend at particular risk for any reason? In which case such invitations would make sense. In any case as I say, no harm will (almost certainly) be done.
 
It is very (very) unlikely to be harmful, and probably is useful, albeit the amount of ‘use’ is possibly minimal. We are still unsure of the decay rate of immunisation protection, though I believe it is detectable on the order of 4 to 6 months (so May to September). Is your friend at particular risk for any reason? In which case such invitations would make sense. In any case as I say, no harm will (almost certainly) be done.
I think it's simply that he is diabetic - and on the vulnerable list.
And his surname begins with D so is on the D alphabetic list.

I haven't been asked at all - but then my surname begins with W - so might be some time as Captain Scott memorably said.
 
The lack of a settled seasonal pattern means they've still been doing spring booster campaigns. However the eligibility for that one is now much narrower than for the autumn campaigns. In 2023 the spring booster was only for those aged 75+, people in care homes, people over 5 years old who have a weakened immune system due to a range of specified conditions. Diabetes on its own was not enough to qualify.
 
Not the most informative / intuitive user interface nor level of detail on first inspection

Absolutely zilch about the 2023 Autumn Booster uptake ... which could be one of the more relevant data sets atm.
However, I have the figure of approx 10% uptake so far lurking in the filing cabinet from seeing it somewhere quite recently.
 
Hmmm, I now seem to have developed a sore hoarse throat which my son has had for a while but hasn't tested positive, but that's OK for me as it means either I'm going to get Covid out of the way before we go away in 12 days, or else I'll have a different throat bug so I won't catch Covid in the meantime. :D
 
Hmmm, I now seem to have developed a sore hoarse throat which my son has had for a while but hasn't tested positive, but that's OK for me as it means either I'm going to get Covid out of the way before we go away in 12 days, or else I'll have a different throat bug so I won't catch Covid in the meantime. :D
Glad you're not covid positive ..

doed having one bug prevent you from getting covid at the same time? Question for elbows
 
Glad you're not covid positive ..

doed having one bug prevent you from getting covid at the same time? Question for elbows
It's complex. Some viruses appear to interfere with the pathogenesis of each other whilst others potentiate, and this varies from person to person. This might in large part be down to innate immune response (or lack of).
 
I think I've had shingles because of a Yellow Fever injection. I definitely had the shingles -and it was after a yellow fever injection.
I suggested my GP fill in a yellow card to report it. Fill it in yourself she said!
 
Fucking Nick Triggle alert! When I saw the headline I thought it might be one of his, and indeed it was.


Its not very subtle. People are going to vary in terms of how much they agree with it. I do think its got some reasonable points in it, and that anxieties are an issue.

And I certainly think its an unsurprising stance, since after all it contains much of what made the establishment in this country so badly prepared for a nasty pandemic in the first place. It contains much of what we were conditioned to see as normal during non-pandemic times, and where many of us will or already have ended up again on the other side of the pandemic.

It does at least acknowledge some of the things that undermine the most simplistic version of reality that it seeks to promote, although I note that when it comes to large, attention grabbling charts, he only uses material that reinforces his central narrative. And the experts used are mostly the same ones that they tried to use to paint a picture of 'endemic equilibrium' long before such claims bore any relationship with reality. But as time has gone on, the chances of them finally being broadly right when it comes to seasonality have certainly increased, although I still wouldnt bank on that tidy picture every year.

Perhaps most striking of all is the attitude towards testing once you get towards the end of the article. This side of the establishment clearly isnt interested in taking lessons from the pandemic and using them to reduce deaths from various viruses in non-pandemic times. Rather we are encouraged to think that tests are pointless, and that decent data is bad for the rascal multitude. For sure there are anxiety traps that can be reinforced by paying the wrong sort of attention to data, but all the same, fuck the attitude towards tests and data that this article seeks to promote.
 
Its not all bad news when it comes to establishment attitudes towards testing though. For example I've just been reading the 2022-23 surveillance report that he used to get those flu vs covid death figure estimates, and there are several indicators in there that they've had to up their game in terms of actually doing a better job with figuring out flu cases in hospitals via proper testing:

Peak hospitalisation rates were higher than previous influenza seasons; improved virological case ascertainment is likely to have contributed to this, with increased influenza testing compared with pre-COVID-19 seasons.

The unusual shape of the epidemic wave in the 2022 to 2023 season (characterised by early increases, sharp increases, a high peak followed by steep decreases) could partly be due a step change in case ascertainment

It should be noted that the high proportion of influenza A that is unsubtyped may reflect increase in the use of rapid nucleic acid amplification tests (NAATs) used at the point of care as well as longer standing use of laboratory NAATs that do not include subtyping

Trends in influenza hospitalisation and critical care admission should be interpreted in the context of testing practices for acute respiratory infections. In recent years there has been wider implementation of rapid molecular point of care tests for influenza in hospital settings

From Surveillance of influenza and other seasonal respiratory viruses in the UK, winter 2022 to 2023

One of the reasons they've had to do this is if they simply relied on general 'influenza-like-illness' surveillance, they would often struggle to distinguish between covid and flu.
 
I also note that the report gives some indication of the number of detected infection outbreaks in different settings in ENgland last season. The number involving covid far exceeds the number attributed to flu, it didnt suit Triggle to draw attention to this eh. ALthough I should note that differences in formal testing can affect these numbers substantially. The 'no organism reported' column gives some indication of how many outbreaks havent had proper testing to determine the cause.

Screenshot 2023-10-15 at 12.20.24.png
 
Finally for now I will focus on the chart which shows their estimated deaths. Its useful for those interested in estimated flu deaths going back a good number of years.

But I'm also including it because it makes clear these are estimates using data fed into a model, and also shows some of the limitations with this model. Specifically look at the 'Unexplained' column. I wouldnt be rushing to claim there were more flu deaths than covid deaths that season when the difference between those numbers is not a million miles away from the unexplained number.

Oh and just look at how large the unexplained number is for the winter of 2019-2020! Its tempting to wonder if some of that could have been due to 'early Covid' of the sort we've heard anecdotes about, but exploring that topic properly is not easy.

Screenshot 2023-10-15 at 12.26.30.png
 
I also note that it says each season runs to week 20, but that the 2022-23 data goes up to week 13, so are these figures going to be further revised in future?
 
Finally for now I will focus on the chart which shows their estimated deaths. Its useful for those interested in estimated flu deaths going back a good number of years.

But I'm also including it because it makes clear these are estimates using data fed into a model, and also shows some of the limitations with this model. Specifically look at the 'Unexplained' column. I wouldnt be rushing to claim there were more flu deaths than covid deaths that season when the difference between those numbers is not a million miles away from the unexplained number.

Oh and just look at how large the unexplained number is for the winter of 2019-2020! Its tempting to wonder if some of that could have been due to 'early Covid' of the sort we've heard anecdotes about, but exploring that topic properly is not easy.

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What was going on with flu in 2013/14? That's a hell of a drop from the figures in adjacent years
 
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