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You know what, I didn't know that the UK was still allowing people to arrive from overseas! I had assumed until yesterday that you'd closed the borders. Can't believe you didn't, or have I got that wrong?
 
Cities with populations of millions always have universities and research facilities.

Universities and research labs have virology departments.

Virology labs study Corona viruses.

It happens all over the world. Don't be a pawn in trump's game to start a fight with China ahead of his election campaign.

Accept these things can and do happen naturally.
Are you saying there is no possibility it escaped from the lab?
 
Cities with populations of millions always have universities and research facilities.

Universities and research labs have virology departments.

Virology labs study Corona viruses.

It happens all over the world. Don't be a pawn in trump's game to start a fight with China ahead of his election campaign.

Accept these things can and do happen naturally.
This distraction is worse than that, cos it detracts from the real issue here - that this does happen naturally, and that it is happening naturally all too often nowadays via our agricultural systems. That's something not only China needs to face up to and deal with. It can happen anywhere. We shouldn't forget our own little agriculture-related disease fuck-ups of the recent past. This needs a truly global response. No chance of that with wankers like Trump throwing baseless accusations around.
 
Are you saying there is no possibility it escaped from the lab?

I don't think anyone can say for certain that there is no possibility, just that it isn't a normal method of a new virus entering the human population (usually to do with livestock farming or meat hygiene - so it is logically the least likely of those options).
 
Are you saying there is no possibility it escaped from the lab?
There is no evidence that it escaped from the lab. None. There is strong evidence, judged by those who know about these things and have examined the pattern of mutation, that it isn't a human-engineered virus, so if it did escape from a lab, it escaped as a naturally occurring virus. But it's a new virus, meaning it's mutated somewhere, somehow to get from a bat into another animal and from there into humans. 'escaped from a lab' isn't the obvious route for this to happen. Via livestock is sadly a tried and tested route in that it's happened many times before. Viruses jump species. They can jump more than once onto us. That's the thing we need to be worrying about here.

This lab nonsense is, among many other things, actually an excuse not to look at current farming practices. It's a dangerous response in that sense. Next pandemic could just as easily come from the US. Given its highly questionable agricultural practices, it wouldn't be a surprise for this to happen in the US. Blaming it on the dastardly Chinese leaking from a lab and lying about it is an excuse not to face up to that.


ETA: You do realise that you're only asking this cos Trump keeps bringing it up. Trump the man who advised people to inject bleach. You might as well start listening to David Icke.
 
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There is no evidence that it escaped from the lab. None. There is strong evidence, judged by those who know about these things and have examined the pattern of mutation, that it isn't a human-engineered virus, so if it did escape from a lab, it escaped as a naturally occurring virus. But it's a new virus, meaning it's mutated somewhere, somehow to get from a bat into another animal and from there into humans. 'escaped from a lab' isn't the obvious route for this to happen. Via livestock is sadly a tried and tested route in that it's happened many times before. Viruses jump species. They can jump more than once onto us. That's the thing we need to be worrying about here.

This lab nonsense is, among many other things, actually an excuse not to look at current farming practices. It's a dangerous response in that sense. Next pandemic could just as easily come from the US. Given its highly questionable agricultural practices, it wouldn't be a surprise for this to happen in the US. Blaming it on the dastardly Chinese leaking from a lab and lying about it is an excuse not to face up to that.

Indeed. And although not a virus, can I just say BSE? Meat hygiene and livestock practices here were terrible until that hit and were tightened up in the aftermath.
 
littlebabyjesus no one, especially not me, has suggested it is in any way human engineered, indeed I posted some time back that studies into the genetic makeup of this virus strongly indicated it was wholly natural. Back when I posted that item to suggest the virus occurred and was transmitted naturally (I mean't not from a lab) an immediate response was to say that this didn't preclude that it could have escaped from a lab.
 
The factor that I think you may be missing is that in order for a virus to cross the species barrier, there often has to be repeated contact, and there are often other factors involved. You cannot take say a pig virus that has only hitherto existed in the pig population and store it in a lab and have it get out and cause a global pandemic amongst humans.

Usually what happens is someone interacting frequently with lets say pigs that have a pig virus spreading amongst them due to poor animal husbandry will be exposed daily to the pig virus and if they are at a low ebb themselves may end up with it invading their own cells and it may find that it can replicate there and cause symptoms that will enable it to be passed to other people.

Stuff (viruses at least) just doesn't generally get passed on or become transmissable to or by a different species by someone leaving the lid off a beaker in a lab or somesuch.
 
Thats one way that viruses can cross the species barrier. There are others. And it all gets so very complicated, and even for experts in the field it is the usual story of various theories, some of which are well accepted, but there is not always agreement between experts as to which one(s) applied in a particular instance.

Some examples that I am aware of from looking at influenza in the past are reassortment, antigenic shift, antigenic drift.


Reassortment is responsible for some of the major genetic shifts in the history of the influenza virus. The 1957 and 1968 pandemic flu strains were caused by reassortment between an avian virus and a human virus, whereas the H1N1 virus responsible for the 2009 swine flu pandemic has an unusual mix of swine, avian and human influenza genetic sequences.


When two different strains of influenza infect the same cell simultaneously, their protein capsids and lipid envelopes are removed, exposing their RNA, which is then transcribed to mRNA. The host cell then forms new viruses that combine their antigens; for example, H3N2 and H5N1 can form H5N2 this way. Because the human immune system has difficulty recognizing the new influenza strain, it may be highly dangerous, and result in a new pandemic.


Antigenic drift is a kind of genetic variation in viruses, arising by the accumulation of mutations in the virus genes that code for virus-surface proteins that host antibodies recognize. This results in a new strain of virus particles that is not effectively inhibited by the antibodies that prevented infection by previous strains. This makes it easier for the changed virus to spread throughout a partially immune population. Antigenic drift occurs in both influenza A and influenza B viruses.

Anyway although much of the detail there is influenza-specific, some of the concepts apply more broadly. I'm not that up to speed with all of this as it applies to coronaviruses but thats partly because human studies into these matters have been somewhat limited and are often speculative. And I get the distinct impression that even the 'closely related to this pandemic virus SARS-CoV-2' viruses that have been found in bats and pangolins are not that closely related really, in the sense that even if they are 90 something percent the same, their common ancestor may still have been a hundred years ago. So, lots of gaps!

Here is an article form 2015 about a different human coronavirus (OC43) and an attempt to study its evolution.


I mention it right now because one of the things it says is:

During evolution, high frequencies of homologous RNA recombination and gene mutations are considered the main forces that push CoVs to adapt to specific hosts. Such events can lead to emergence of new strains or genotypes within a certain species and even to new species, causing epidemic or zoonotic outbreaks that continuously threaten human health2,3. This phenomenon is exemplified by the recent emergence of SARS-CoV and MERS-CoV6,7. However, the detailed evolutionary mechanism of interspecies transmission and the persistence of CoVs in specific hosts have yet to be fully elucidated.

I'd love to say more but I'm not knowledgable enough. I will say that as far as I know it would be perfectly possible for a coronavirus that happened to be well suited to human infection and spread to exist in an animal host for a long time without any notable effects on humans, if the animal in question (or an intermediate species of animal) does not have many opportunities to infect a human. And if that opportunity does arise at some point, the human in question doesnt really need to be run down or otherwise suffering from immune system problems in order to get infected by it and start spreading it. If the virus has certain properties that already allow it to thrive in humans, which could have been acquired in a number of different ways, then little more than chance is required to get things started in humans.

Most of this stuff really doesnt help rule the lab accident theory in or out. Because many aspects and details strike me as compatible with both scenarios. If one of the samples they took from a bat was highly transmissible in humans and a small error happened with infection prevention in the lab, its really not much different than the very same virus reaching humans via an animal, its only the final step that is different.

So all of this detail is mostly only useful in this lab discussion if dealing with people who have trouble getting their heads round how viruses evolve, how this stuff can happen naturally/via the way humans farm and otherwise interact with animals. Its useful if dealing with someone who thinks the lab is the only explanation. It doesnt rule out the lab. I remain mostly without evidence for or against the lab, and I do not know if that will ever change.

I do know that I will continue to disagree with those who want to characterise the Wuhan lab as being just like labs in cities everywhere. For one reason, that lab is the base of the most famous SARS-like coronaviruses in bats researcher, whose own initial thoughs upon hearing of the new virus in humans included:

“I had never expected this kind of thing to happen in Wuhan, in central China.” Her studies had shown that the southern, subtropical provinces of Guangdong, Guangxi and Yunnan have the greatest risk of coronaviruses jumping to humans from animals—particularly bats, a known reservoir. If coronaviruses were the culprit, she remembers thinking, “Could they have come from our lab?”

Fear not, the rest of the article is all about the other side of things, the continual risk that various forms of human activity involving animals and animal habitats creates. Of which there are plenty. But I am inclined to keep lab accidents on the list of things that humans do which pose theoretical risk in regards novel virus outbreaks, pandemics etc too.

 
The least likely scenario is still "escaped from a lab" though. Humans have been getting viruses from animals since domestication due to close ongoing contact and before laboratories existed, that is a very long period of time. Any lab with a halfway decent protocol is a less likely vector than ongoing contact with livestock or wildlife.
 
I have nothing I can really use to fairly judge that option as the least likely. So far everything is in pretty much equal place on my list of the plausible possibilities. Others will of course make their own determinations about this, but nobody here has said anything which moves my dial on this issue at all.

I'd much rather know, or be able to put one option in the clear lead in my mind. But I cannot, and there are now multiple consequences of all the politics swirling around the narrative about a lab accident that make it less likely I will ever find out. There is much research that countries other than China can do into this virus, but the origins of it, the likely animal host(s), are things that may only be discovered via China, and the work of people like Shi Zhengli. And now access to such stuff is reduced and the entire subject becomes hypersensitive in so many ways, some of which would likely still be sensitive now even without the political use of the lab accident theory.

Anyway I hate the fact that I feel compelled to go into various detail whenever the lab theory comes up, it makes it sound like I am more interested in these angles than I am. I mean certainly I get pissed off when I think about how the return of H1N1 flu in 1977 was considered to have been the result of a lab accident, and how these sorts of things are not secret, but just dont seem to feature in peoples conversations or views of the world. In a pandemic where infection control in hospitals is quite the issue, and there are numerous other failings on display, this just isnt a time when I can push human error in any context too far down the list of things sorted by likeliness. Especially not when the only outbreaks of the original SARS that were noticed after the initial outbreak had been successfully dealt with in 2003, were from a small bunch of different lab accidents.

It just feels wrong to me for the subject to come up without these things getting at least a mention. But I am now really quite tempted to refuse to repeat myself on this subject again in future, and to only ever post about it again if some interesting new piece of the puzzle emerges.
 
I think there are far more important questions elbows - it matters less now how it happened than what we are doing about it now it has.

Actually you know what - better agricultural practice and livestock management, better market and abattoir hygiene and regulations, and ensuring that labs have good biohazard procedures are not ridiculous demands and aren't mutually exclusive. Let's just try to tighten up all these things if we are looking at how to prevent similar stuff happening again.
 
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ETA: You do realise that you're only asking this cos Trump keeps bringing it up. Trump the man who advised people to inject bleach. You might as well start listening to David Icke.

Trump's hardly the only person who's talked about the possibility of the virus escaping from the Wuhan lab, though of course the discussion has been tainted by his involvement in it. This story from Mother Jones seems a lot more level-headed - it looks at genuine concerns that the virus could have escaped from a Wuhan lab, and notes that the earliest cases can be traced to before the outbreak at the wet market.

"The market was just an amplifier, Mardi Gras in miniature ... Which left no firm explanation for how a virus that had originated in bats in remote caves in southern China had suddenly appeared in downtown Wuhan. Even the most common theories—that it had jumped from the bat to a person or another animal that served as an intermediate host as it traveled to Wuhan—would require a remarkable confluence of events. No wonder then that to some it was like a black hole suddenly opening in the Swiss countryside outside the CERN particle-collider.

It was all perfect fodder for conspiracy-minded bigots like Rush Limbaugh, who didn’t understand the science and immediately spun dark bioweapon fictions about the “ChiCom” government, which were rightly condemned by experts in the field (and which he’s since retracted)....

But questions remained about whether a bat-cave researcher might have unwittingly carried the natural virus back to Wuhan, or become infected in the lab. Unfortunately, such territory had already been made toxic by the Limbaughs of the world.

It also looks at the history of virus escapes from labs, some of which surprised - even the earlier SARS virus has escaped from labs at least three times since the 2003 epidemic.


And of course, this is China, where the regime's behaviour invites this kind of speculation - if there was some kind of lab incident behind this, anybody who could shed more light on the subject would be well aware that doing so would mean that they would disappear and never be heard from again.
 
You know what, I didn't know that the UK was still allowing people to arrive from overseas! I had assumed until yesterday that you'd closed the borders. Can't believe you didn't, or have I got that wrong?

So what's the go with this? Did the uk not stop arrivals! If so wtaf!

Screenshot_20200516-143723.png
 
So what's the go with this? Did the uk not stop arrivals! If so wtaf!

View attachment 212812

No, they didn't stop arrivals. But really, it's not necessarily that you need to close the border as such, but you do need to have a quarantine at the border, which they also do not have.

Congratulations on Queensland's figures. The response of other nations to this crisis is what makes the UK response so painful.
 
Things are getting grim in Brazil, the two highest daily reported deaths & new cases occurred on 14th & 15th May, whilst the president remains in denial, and loses his second health minster in under a month. :facepalm:

Deaths - 835 & 824 / New cases - 13,761 & 15,305.

Brazil's health minister has resigned after less than a month in the job following disagreements over the government's handling of the country's escalating coronavirus crisis.

Nelson Teich had criticised a decree issued by President Jair Bolsonaro allowing gyms and beauty parlours to reopen.

He has downplayed the virus as "a little flu" and has said the spread of Covid-19 is inevitable, attracting global criticism.

 
Something just shy of 100k people ice, with zero quarantine.


Fucking hell Tone! That's insane! Jeez! Why didn't they lock down the boarders?? Aus boarders both external & internal have been locked down for about six weeks. If you're an Aus citizen returning you can get in but it's 14 days quarantine in a very strict way. They've been using the 'ilegal' migrant villages in the middle of no where.

What was the reasoning behind that?

I hope you and yours are okay. Like the beard btw, very different to your usual look. X

Screenshot_20200516-165225.png
 
Are you saying there is no possibility it escaped from the lab?

If you're saying its been genetically engineered in a lab, that's rubbish....

Peter Daszak, a scientist who's worked with Wuhan scientists for 15 years to try and prevent the next pandemic...


Long audio interview with a couple of different scientists, summary of the interviews, this virus has not been genetically engineered. Longer interview with Peter Dazak, at 29 minutes 44 seconds.


I would just like to highlight a final quote from Peter Daszak..

Thanks to the conspiracy theory.
Thanks to the politicisation of pandemic preventation.
We're not right now communicating very well with our Chinese partners.
Its holding up work that will save lives.
Its holding up the vacine work that will save lives.
Its exactly the wrong thing to do in a pandemic.
 
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Very big difference between "escaped from a lab" and "created in a lab."

If it wasn't created in a lab though they'd have had to take it into the lab first, in which case it could have escaped from wherever they got it from before taking it into the lab.

I think.
 
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