Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

[CH1]

My partner has ME. ME is just as prevalent, and yes a lot of people's long covid will may be ME. The research is still ongoing. Are you trying to say that people with ME don't want treatment?

I'm trying to say that they want special treatment - that is not the treatment given to people with depression.

 

[BristolEcho]

I'm trying to say that they want special treatment - that is not the treatment given to people with depression.

No they don't. They want a treatment that actually helps their condition. Anti-depressants don't work for ME. They can help someone with depression and who also has ME, but it doesn't help with the ME itself.

It's a condition that has been completely mishandled, under researched and this is very likely because it largely affects women. The "treatments" that had been pushed included Graded Excerise which made people worse and CBT which again wasn't effective. These have now both been withdrawn from NICE guidelines.

Two years ago this condition turned out world upside down. We have been lucky with the support of our local service. Do we want "special" treatment? Not really, but I dream of them finding some sort of cure and it would be amazing if there was some form of treatment they could provide. How very demanding of us.

 

[B.I.G]

Well obviously I am ignorant. I am trying to project my own sense of extreme loss of control onto people saying they have brain fog. And I am not a doctor.

But its a bit like ME, which is not so prevalent now as it once was. Various people (as reported in the press, and one I new personally) were pretty pissed off to have their ME treated with anti depressants - they had a wonderful new diagnosis, a glorious creation once pejoratively called "Yuppy Flu". And they needed it to be untreatable, or at the very least treated by some special means, not generally available to the population at large.

I think its a bit much to predicate a situation where a virus causes brain fog IN SOME PEOPLE, but not generally. Its actually a self-defining illness that cannot be defined.

Ignorant old man.

 

[muscovyduck]

Well obviously I am ignorant. I am trying to project my own sense of extreme loss of control onto people saying they have brain fog. And I am not a doctor.

But its a bit like ME, which is not so prevalent now as it once was. Various people (as reported in the press, and one I new personally) were pretty pissed off to have their ME treated with anti depressants - they had a wonderful new diagnosis, a glorious creation once pejoratively called "Yuppy Flu". And they needed it to be untreatable, or at the very least treated by some special means, not generally available to the population at large.

I think its a bit much to predicate a situation where a virus causes brain fog IN SOME PEOPLE, but not generally. Its actually a self-defining illness that cannot be defined.

Jesus fucking Christ

 

[Puddy_Tat]

I'm trying to say that they want special treatment - that is not the treatment given to people with depression.

if i had something that wasn't depression, i wouldn't think it was 'special treatment' to be given something for what i had, rather than anti-depressants...

 

[CH1]

No they don't. They want a treatment that actually helps their condition. Anti-depressants don't work for ME. They can help someone with depression and who also has ME, but it doesn't help with the ME itself.

It's a condition that has been completely mishandled, under researched and this is very likely because it largely affects women. The "treatments" that had been pushed included Graded Excerise which made people worse and CBT which again wasn't effective. These have now both been withdrawn from NICE guidelines.

Two years ago this condition turned out world upside down. We have been lucky with the support of our local service. Do we want "special" treatment? Not really, but I dream of them finding some sort of cure and it would be amazing if there was some form of treatment they could provide. How very demanding of us.

Glad you are getting the support you need.
Most of my life I have had little support from the NHS - although from 1993 to about 2013 saw this chap "off the books" He is a bloody saint (and now retired from the NHS). I never understood why he continued "support" for years after the SLAM revolving door slammed shut after 2 years. My GPs simply assumed I was deluded - they had their computer print-out "finishing" me in 2002.

 

[CH1]

Ignorant old man.

You will be one soon!

 

[B.I.G]

You will be one soon!

I’m old now. Sad to say I’m not going around yet claiming people like to pretend to have illnesses. Will probably die before I do.

 

[CH1]

I’m old now. Sad to say I’m not going around yet claiming people like to pretend to have illnesses. Will probably die before I do.

The doyen of depression Dorothy Rowe on the perils of getting a mental health label - which argues for the majority view here in one way - she says that depression is over used as a label, many are unhappy)
So don't take up your bed and walk!

 

[Thesaint]

"Although boosters are offered to over 50s, there are more 50 somethings than 90 somethings and a healthy 50 year old has little to fear from covid compare to an 90+ so the low uptake stats don't tell the whole story"

OK, the start of that sentence is stating the bleeding obvious, but im struggling with what actual point are you making?

Just a arithmetic quirk: If 50s all if ignore the booster, but all 90s take it up the demographic imbalance means only a small fraction offered take it up, but the important target group did get good take up so shouldn't concern anyone. Equally someone mentioned many 50s won't have offered it at this point anyway and it's poor journalism.

 

[Brainaddict]

Well obviously I am ignorant. I am trying to project my own sense of extreme loss of control onto people saying they have brain fog. And I am not a doctor.

But its a bit like ME, which is not so prevalent now as it once was. Various people (as reported in the press, and one I new personally) were pretty pissed off to have their ME treated with anti depressants - they had a wonderful new diagnosis, a glorious creation once pejoratively called "Yuppy Flu". And they needed it to be untreatable, or at the very least treated by some special means, not generally available to the population at large.

I think its a bit much to predicate a situation where a virus causes brain fog IN SOME PEOPLE, but not generally. Its actually a self-defining illness that cannot be defined.

This is laughably ignorant, not just about ME, or post-viral conditions, or disease in general, but also about the history of people trying to find solutions to ME/CFS, and the extraordinary, unbelievable amounts of effort people suffering from it have put into to trying to find cures or at least ameliorative treatments in the absence of support from the medical establishment. Best just not to talk about things you don't know anything about really. It's easy. Just say nothing and people will think better of you.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I'm trying to say that they want special treatment - that is not the treatment given to people with depression.

Well if you're not going to accept chemotherapy for your broken leg I just don't think there's anything we can do for you.

 

[CH1]

Why not go the whole hog and argue for ME/CFS being a viral disease allied to Covid?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Why not go the whole hog and argue for ME/CFS being a viral disease allied to Covid?

Because ME predates covid?

Post-viral is probably more accurate anyway. In which case it's entirely possible to get simillar symptoms from different viruses, because the common factor is the immune response not the virus itself.

We have no problems accepting that symptoms like pneumonia, fever, coughing etc can be caused by all sorts of unrelated viruses. Dunno why it's so absurd to think of chronic fatigue in the same way.

 

[two sheds]

Presumably long covid doesn't exist either and they're just attention seekers

 

[teqniq]

I know personally at least one person with long Covid. Big guy fit and healthy before. Now he's got no energy and gets exhausted going any further than a short walk so anyone dismissing it is frankly talking bollox.

 

[_Russ_]

Well depression and ME do share some symptoms, to what extent misdiagnosis of either is happening I have no clue, but in these days of difficult access to GPs and the use of Phone assessments Ill bet its a rising number

 

[Brainaddict]

Why not go the whole hog and argue for ME/CFS being a viral disease allied to Covid?

It's likely that a high percentage of ME/CFS cases result from viruses*. Many people know they had a virus and didn't recover. Others may not have noticed because it was a simple 'cold' or something that they barely noticed. Covid is another virus that causes serious post-viral disability in many people, yes. Other viruses thought to cause it include influenza, Epstein-barr, SARS1 and ebola. Medical science after years of being baffled by MS recently converged on the idea that that too is a post-viral condition from the Epstein-Barr virus. I say this for the benefit of other people really, as you seem to enjoy your ignorance. Here's a good summary article on ME/CFS and long covid.

*I wouldn't say all, there are known cases of people recovering from CFS when some previously unnoticed malady got found and cured.

 

[Sasaferrato]

No they don't. They want a treatment that actually helps their condition. Anti-depressants don't work for ME. They can help someone with depression and who also has ME, but it doesn't help with the ME itself.

It's a condition that has been completely mishandled, under researched and this is very likely because it largely affects women. The "treatments" that had been pushed included Graded Excerise which made people worse and CBT which again wasn't effective. These have now both been withdrawn from NICE guidelines.

Two years ago this condition turned out world upside down. We have been lucky with the support of our local service. Do we want "special" treatment? Not really, but I dream of them finding some sort of cure and it would be amazing if there was some form of treatment they could provide. How very demanding of us.

It seems that other than deciding that ME is actually a real illness, there hasn't been a huge amount of progress with regard to either treatment or determining a cause.

 

[wtfftw]

Are we really fucking debating ME again? jesus fucking christ. Thanks to those with more patience who reply properly but fucking fuck off. frankly.

 

[elbows]

Just a arithmetic quirk: If 50s all if ignore the booster, but all 90s take it up the demographic imbalance means only a small fraction offered take it up, but the important target group did get good take up so shouldn't concern anyone. Equally someone mentioned many 50s won't have offered it at this point anyway and it's poor journalism.

Regardless of any dodgy angles in the Mirrors reporting, the fact is that the authorities are concerned about uptake and have been saying stuff about this in recent days. Some of that stuff is quoted by the Mirror and others.

Here is something from NHS England itself. Its a mix of declaring how pleased they are to have delivered over 5 million jabs this campaign already, with pleas for eligible people to come forwards. The 50-64 age group without medical conditions that increase their vulnerability are not skewing their thinking on this, its uptake in the higher priority groups they are concerned about right now, especially given the indicators of a wave already being well underway, and its associated impact on hospitalisations.

NHS England » NHS urges six million people to get their Covid autumn booster

www.england.nhs.uk

Including:

NHS director of vaccinations and screening, Steve Russell, said:

“While we have already delivered over five million autumn boosters – which is fantastic progress and testament to the hard work of NHS staff and volunteers – there are millions more eligible for the life-saving dose still to come forward. This weekend we are urging all those eligible to get their Covid-19 autumn booster to maximise their protection against the virus, as soon as possible.

“NHS staff continue to pull out all the stops to make sure that happens with thousands of vaccine sites open across the country, I cannot emphasise enough the importance of getting your booster dose as soon you are invited – it is best protection for you, your family and your community this winter.”

NHS medical director, Professor Sir Stephen Powis, said:

“The threat of a Covid-19 and flu season creating a “twindemic” this winter is real, as infections levels continue to rise and the number of people in hospital with covid climbing by more than a third in just over a month across England.

“Thanks to the hard work of NHS staff and volunteers we have already delivered more than five million doses in four weeks with hundreds of thousands of people booking their vaccine every day, but we know that there are still millions of people who have yet to take up the offer.

“If for any reason you have not yet been able to get your autumn booster, I would strongly urge you to come forward as soon as possible and get protected – the vaccine remains the best protection against serious illness and hospitalisation from covid this winter.”

People currently eligible for an autumn booster include those aged 65 and over, pregnant women and frontline health and care workers.

Almost one in three people with suppressed immune systems have had an autumn booster with the remaining urged to come forward as soon as possible if it has been 91 days since their last dose.

 

[elbows]

Also i addition to the data I posted the other day, the official dashboard has a graph showing percentage of autumn boosters given in the age groups of 65 and above for England. Hovering over the graph currently shows these numbers:



From the 3rd chart at https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations?areaType=nation&areaName=England

 

[Thesaint]

Also i addition to the data I posted the other day, the official dashboard has a graph showing percentage of autumn boosters given in the age groups of 65 and above for England. Hovering over the graph currently shows these numbers:

View attachment 346474

From the 3rd chart at https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations?areaType=nation&areaN

It looks like people aren't so interested in the vaccines when left to their own devices especially as you go younger and it's not like people don't know they exist.

My suspicion based on anecdotal conversations is people have lost faith somewhat as they get minor side effects and then get covid anyway and this can't be discounted and this maybe a reaction to the vaccines being oversold early on.

In any case as I often mention there's too much other stuff going on right now news wise anyway.

 

[muscovyduck]

It looks like people aren't so interested in the vaccines when left to their own devices especially as you go younger and it's not like people don't know they exist.

My suspicion based on anecdotal conversations is people have lost faith somewhat as they get minor side effects and then get covid anyway and this can't be discounted and this maybe a reaction to the vaccines being oversold early on.

In any case as I often mention there's too much other stuff going on right now news wise anyway.

I think with younger generations, a lot of us have never really experienced a functioning NHS and only ever experienced something that functions a bit like trying to get benefits out the DWP. Trying to get a vaccine in that context is a lot more stressful and potentially even triggering of ongoing medical anxiety. Following the metaphor trying to book a vaccine feels a bit like trying to claim JSA to cover a week out of work between jobs or something, you know you should do it but you don't

 

[two sheds]

I wonder how many people who've not taken it have been influenced by the anti-vaxxers, false claims of vaccine death rates, and how the vaccine doesn't work. because people get (a mild version of) it anyway.

 

[CH1]

I wonder how many people who've not taken it have been influenced by the anti-vaxxers, false claims of vaccine death rates, and how the vaccine doesn't work. because people get (a mild version of) it anyway.

I know an osteopath who is a GB News and Daily Mail addict. I haven't kept up, but he seems to get really intense about wanting to dictate which brand of booster he is given. But he says Mark Steyn is the only one investigating all these vaccine related deaths. (I posted a Guardian article about this up-thread).
I think he took his 4th jab - I will ask him.

 

[Thesaint]

I wonder how many people who've not taken it have been influenced by the anti-vaxxers, false claims of vaccine death rates, and how the vaccine doesn't work. because people get (a mild version of) it anyway.

I'm going to guess not many. Most people get their news from BBC Facebook etc so only experience their controlled content.
To find any unofficial view on vaccines takes a concerted effort to bypass the usual channels and the older age groups simply aren't going to do that.

 

[two sheds]

I wasn't meaning just older groups, and anti-vaxxers seems to be all over fucking social media don't they. Also places like Next Door where older people are on, and you'd think any of their kids who've been turned would be pretty vocal.

 

[Thesaint]

I wasn't meaning just older groups, and anti-vaxxers seems to be all over fucking social media don't they. Also places like Next Door where older people are on, and you'd think any of their kids who've been turned would be pretty vocal.

What's your definition of an anti vaxxers though? At one end is people who are sure it's got Gates's nano-bots in it, through those just disinterested, to people who had bad experiences of it.

 

[two sheds]

What's your definition of an anti vaxxers though? At one end is people who are sure it's got Gates's nano-bots in it, through those just disinterested, to people who had bad experiences of it.

category A.