Colonel H - shot in the back by his own troops?
- Thread starter Hollis
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bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
phildwyer said:
shits and giggles? being able to get away with it?
who is colonel h anyway?
from wkikpedia ( for whatever fuckin value that is - ive edited out the "citiation needed " bollocks to make i easier to read - the whole article begins " An editor has expressed a concern that the tone or style of this article or section may not be appropriate for an encyclopedia)
"At this juncture of the battle, 2 Para's advance had become stuck. They were being held up at many points by Argentine resistance that contradicted both the SAS and intelligence remarks of "hit them hard and they will fold", the very words that Jones spoke to his men during his orders group. Jones had pushed his tactical HQ, known as TAC 1, well forward of where an officer conducting a battle should be in order to be able to effectively impose his plan and gain a proper perspective on events. It was at this point, for reasons unknown, Jones decided to personally lead an assault on an entrenched machine gun nest at the crest of a low spur. Followed by his bodyguard, Sergeant Norman, his signaller, Sergeant Blackburn and several officers in his TAC 1 party, including Captains Dent and Wood, he charged the Argentine position. Sgt. Norman recalls calling out to Jones to "watch your fucking back", but Norman believes the OC either didn't hear him, or chose to ignore him. In a documentary filmed after the war, Norman believes that Jones chose to ignore him, as that was his style of leadership It must be noted that on many training exercises in the UK, Jones had been declared 'KIA' by the umpires during several mock battles, for precisely the same reasons Jones ran into a small re-entrant (a dip between two hills) and carried on running up to the crest towards the machine gun position. After stopping to reload his submachine gun halfway up the hill, he pushed on, only to be shot in the back by an Argentine gunner, Jose Louis Rios, manning a MAG at the right of the Argentine line, on the opposite spur to the trench Jones was charging Corporal Rios was later fatally wounded in his trench by Corporal Abols firing a 66mm rocket. Jones had been hit in the back and the groin, and despite the efforts of those around him, was dead within the hour. Also killed during this action was the adjutant, Captain Wood, A company's second-in-command Captain Dent and Corporal Hardman. Jones was later to receive the Victoria Cross for his efforts."
"At this juncture of the battle, 2 Para's advance had become stuck. They were being held up at many points by Argentine resistance that contradicted both the SAS and intelligence remarks of "hit them hard and they will fold", the very words that Jones spoke to his men during his orders group. Jones had pushed his tactical HQ, known as TAC 1, well forward of where an officer conducting a battle should be in order to be able to effectively impose his plan and gain a proper perspective on events. It was at this point, for reasons unknown, Jones decided to personally lead an assault on an entrenched machine gun nest at the crest of a low spur. Followed by his bodyguard, Sergeant Norman, his signaller, Sergeant Blackburn and several officers in his TAC 1 party, including Captains Dent and Wood, he charged the Argentine position. Sgt. Norman recalls calling out to Jones to "watch your fucking back", but Norman believes the OC either didn't hear him, or chose to ignore him. In a documentary filmed after the war, Norman believes that Jones chose to ignore him, as that was his style of leadership It must be noted that on many training exercises in the UK, Jones had been declared 'KIA' by the umpires during several mock battles, for precisely the same reasons Jones ran into a small re-entrant (a dip between two hills) and carried on running up to the crest towards the machine gun position. After stopping to reload his submachine gun halfway up the hill, he pushed on, only to be shot in the back by an Argentine gunner, Jose Louis Rios, manning a MAG at the right of the Argentine line, on the opposite spur to the trench Jones was charging Corporal Rios was later fatally wounded in his trench by Corporal Abols firing a 66mm rocket. Jones had been hit in the back and the groin, and despite the efforts of those around him, was dead within the hour. Also killed during this action was the adjutant, Captain Wood, A company's second-in-command Captain Dent and Corporal Hardman. Jones was later to receive the Victoria Cross for his efforts."
dylanredefined
Not a house elf a tiger
phildwyer said:
Not really both sides used same calibre rifles and its not like you could do a
crime scene like csi on a battle field to work out who was where .
He attacked one postion and got taken out by one he hadn't seen .You can argue not really his job to be doing stuff like that and his plan was flawed ,but,He was brave and didn't ask anyone to do something he wasen't prepared to do and they won .
Urban myth best not said in front of people who were there imho
skunkboy69
Reverend of Eternal Light
I've heard a friendly fire rumour from someone who was there too.
Geoff kerr-morg
New Member
I remember an article in Socialist Worker in 1982 written by Eamonn McCann clearly writing this. Eamonn argued that H was wanting his troops to go into a sure death battle and foolishly led the way. Sorry I can't remember the edition number but obviously it was at the time of the Falklands war.
dylanredefined
Not a house elf a tiger
Was he there ?or is he just repeating stories he heard which he would love to be true?
There was one incident when an officer went forward to accept a surrender from one trench and was shot from another trench.Wether it was a delibrate ploy or just confusion in the midst of battle never really known .
after that paras showed a reluctance to trust white flags cant really blame them.
Have been investigations into the rumours of mercenaries being excuted etc.Nothing really proved.The left will never forgive the victory put thatcher in power for longer even though it ended a regime which really was fascist.
There was one incident when an officer went forward to accept a surrender from one trench and was shot from another trench.Wether it was a delibrate ploy or just confusion in the midst of battle never really known .
after that paras showed a reluctance to trust white flags cant really blame them.
Have been investigations into the rumours of mercenaries being excuted etc.Nothing really proved.The left will never forgive the victory put thatcher in power for longer even though it ended a regime which really was fascist.
Andy the Don
Wise men say only fools..
chymaera said:
Both sides used 7.62. The both used the same assualt rifle the FN. The british used the semi-automatic version the SLR, the Argentines used the fully automatic version. British forces only went with NATO standard 5.62 when the SA80 was issued.
Bob_the_lost
Elsewhere
The Argentine rifles were superior to the British ones, but they were the same calibre, 7.62 (long).chymaera said:
Andy the Don
Wise men say only fools..
chymaera said:
Not a definite source, but from Wikipedia..
The L1A1 was replaced in the mid 1980s by the 5.56 mm Enfield SA80 L85A1.
From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_FAL#United_Kingdom
likesfish
You can't park here sir
they weren't the SLR was a better made version than the argie rifle. some of the para version had folding stock and the ability to fire on automatic not actually that useful when firing a 7.62 nato round it produces too much recoil.
the h jones shot in the back is an urban myth he was with the HQ element not full of conscripts visted the place where he got killed he was very brave possibly not what commanders should be doing but brave.
there was a case where an officer was killed going forward to take a surrender after that incident no prisoners were taken for awhile understandably.
the h jones shot in the back is an urban myth he was with the HQ element not full of conscripts visted the place where he got killed he was very brave possibly not what commanders should be doing but brave.
there was a case where an officer was killed going forward to take a surrender after that incident no prisoners were taken for awhile understandably.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
phildwyer said:
It would be difficult to tell.
The Argentinian army, navy and airforce used a mixture of assault rifles chambered for the 5.56mm NATO round and the 7.62x51 NATO round, whereas we (at the time) still used 7.62x51mm NATO exclusively, except for our sub-machine guns which used 9mm pistol ammunition.
Both sides' light and medium machine guns were 7.62.
The wound profiles left by the varying calibres of the weapons would differ markedly, but you wouldn't be able to determine with much certainty whether Jones was killed by an Argentine or a British 7.62 round, and only if he had wounds from 5.56mm rounds would you be able to say for certain that he'd been shot with an Argentine rifle.
That's without getting into the possibility of Jones being shot with a captured rifle or the like.
I'm not inclined to believe the story though, purely on the basis of having known several Paras, none of whom were anything except glory-mad action-hunters. They're not sensible people, and running toward a heavily-defended trench is the kind of thing that'd give a lot of them the horn.
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