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Colonel H - shot in the back by his own troops?

chymaera said:
That is not strictly accurate. Although 7.62 was used by both sides the majority of British forces were equipped with 5.56.

Nope.

We used our L1A1 version of the FN FAL (made under licence at the BSA plants), the Argies used the Brazilian Imbel LAR version (made under licence in Brazil and Argentina).

The SA80 was still in phase 3 testing during the Falklands, it hadn't been "battlefield tested" at all.
 
Bob_the_lost said:
The Argentine rifles were superior to the British ones, but they were the same calibre, 7.62 (long).

The Argentine (actually Brazilian) rifles were better finished (always a failing at Enfield and Brum), and so less likely to jam or borkle in combat.
 
likesfish said:
they weren't the SLR was a better made version than the argie rifle. some of the para version had folding stock and the ability to fire on automatic not actually that useful when firing a 7.62 nato round it produces too much recoil.

Especially if some rotten cunt has screwed in the gas regulator. :D
 
bollocks the standard argie rifle was in fact rather less well finished having handled a few not impressed
the special forces para one was a little nicer having a folding stock but nothing really to write home about
SLRs don't jam sa80on the otherhand:(
 
Hollis said:
A mate of a mate has loose connections with British intelligence, and the mate of the mate reckons this is what happened..

Has anyone ever heard anything along these lines before??

Yes I have heard this before. Back in 1983ish. I am a bit surprised this has come up as I thought it was just runour at the time.
 
likesfish said:
bollocks the standard argie rifle was in fact rather less well finished having handled a few not impressed.
Taken from regulars or conscripts?
the special forces para one was a little nicer having a folding stock but nothing really to write home about
A bit easier to manouvre with the shorter barrel on some of them too, though.
Still weighed a fair bit though. :D
SLRs don't jam sa80on the otherhand:(
Blame the cheapskating of the MOD. The first batches of SA80s were made with milled components and worked well, but then they went over to stamping some parts instead (much cheaper, much faster to manufacture) and you got the inevitable problems with "bad fit" that the armourer couldnt just sort with a bit of "fettling".
 
i was talking to an ex para years ago who reckons he was with him the day he got killed, his version was that h jones was a fucking idiot who just wanted a medal, when he told the other paras they were going to charge the argentine position they told him to go and fuck himself they were staying put, if i recall it right a sergeant and possibly one other made the charge, this was told to me about 83/84
 
that he was shot by his own troops is quite possible, he was at the cutting edge of the PARA battleline and susequently an awful lot of british 7.62 would of been whizzing over his shoulders in an attempt to provide suppresive fire. he was probaly shot by the Argentines, as while both sides were throwing masses of 7.62 at each other with him in the middle, the Argentines were trying to hit him, while the British weren't.

that he was shot deliberately by his own troops is pretty unlikely, he was with his 'inner circle', all of whom were deeply personally loyal to him and his way of soldiering, and being relatively far from the rest of the battalion its unlikely that anyone other than his 'inner circle' would of been able to identify a particular figure as a particular individual.

working out who actually did shoot him would be impossible - assuming, as pretty much everyone does - that he was hit by 7.62X51. both sides used it as their main round, probably on a ratio of 500 7.62X51 for every one of 5.56 or 9mm.

9mm wouldn't be a candidate, its effective range is far too low to have been used in that kind of engagement. its a self-defence round/weapon, used primarily by those like support arms, helicopter crews and senior officers (who shouldn't be at the leading edge of the battle).

5.56 was used by SF, but SF - of either side - would have no interest whatsoever in being in the middle of a full-scale infantry battle.
 
its an urban myth battalion HQ would have been with him so no pissed off conscript types fairly unlikely to find them amongst paras and troops that didn't want to fight wouldn't have crawled 2k to that spot :eek:
paras would'nt shoot each other in the back not when theres a chance of a frank exchange of view later (i.e. a fistfight seen one para officer lamp another and was like :eek: officers arn't supposed to hit one another paras were'nt shocked though .
 
I was with the "immaculate 2nd" that day.
The "H" in H Jones stood for "HAT" (look it up!) as far as we were concerned. He had NO personal loyalty from us and NO respect.
There was NO great conspiracy and NO mass mutiny however, once he was out of the game it mattered not to us to point fingers at any single man.
 
Been to the site of the battle h and his Hq had to crawl 2k to get their cant really see anyone deciding after doing shit like that charging trenches s a step to far its complete madness great story though.
 
Have been investigations into the rumours of mercenaries being excuted etc.Nothing really proved.The left will never forgive the victory put thatcher in power for longer even though it ended a regime which really was fascist.

The regime was already on the way out, the war was an attempt to bolster support for the government. I think you are doing a disservice to the thousands that gave their life and those that are still living with the pain of lost sons, daughters, brothers and sisters in the Argentinian fight for freedom.
 
Sorry if the junta had got away with it the regime would have limped on for a few years.
The generals would have retired as honoured people who had some understandable excesses etc etc.
Winners get to write history.
Losers don't
 
I'm not inclined to believe the story though, purely on the basis of having known several Paras, none of whom were anything except glory-mad action-hunters. They're not sensible people, and running toward a heavily-defended trench is the kind of thing that'd give a lot of them the horn.
:D
I must agree.
 
Anyone who gets told life expectancy in battle 6 hours response is cool is a little different.
I had a friend in my regiments free fall display team. Who got persuaded to do a military parachute jump said it was absolutely terrifying but then he'd done over a 100 free fall jumps. The paras didn't know or care about the dangers tbf because you jump so low most of the civillian drills would be useless anyway.
Disaster in anything requiring subtlety. but if you need to persuade a drugged up 3rd world milita to fuck off nothing says give peace a chance like the arrondissement machine.
Also one of the least racist regiments in the British army.
They will hate you because your a civi cunt or a stinking hat.
 
Sounds like utter bollocks to me, not least because I've seen an tv interview with the Argentine soldier who claims to have killed him.

It was subtitled but very detailed but I recall the shooter saying that what he was doing (charging their position in the open) "was crazy". He claims to have shot Jones once as he ran forward and then twice more when he was injured on the ground trying to give instruction to other troops.
 
The regime was already on the way out, the war was an attempt to bolster support for the government. I think you are doing a disservice to the thousands that gave their life and those that are still living with the pain of lost sons, daughters, brothers and sisters in the Argentinian fight for freedom.
They didn't give their lives they were killed an awful lot were brutally tortured and killed for no reason other than being a problem to the regime in power or a friend of the regime.
They lost their fight though.The regime might have lingered on for a few more years being defeated in the Falklands sealed their fate though.
 
Sorry if the junta had got away with it the regime would have limped on for a few years.
The generals would have retired as honoured people who had some understandable excesses etc etc.
Winners get to write history.
Losers don't


So you are willing to dismiss the lives of over 30,000 people taken off the streets, tortured and then executed because we won the Falklands conflict and they didn't. I happen to know someone who had friends who were disappeared and if they heard you saying shit like that they would rip you apart.
 
So you are willing to dismiss the lives of over 30,000 people taken off the streets, tortured and then executed because we won the Falklands conflict and they didn't. I happen to know someone who had friends who were disappeared and if they heard you saying shit like that they would rip you apart.
He has a point, though. Pinochet's constitution is still in place in Chile, even today. Argentina had a clean break with the military dictators after the Falklands War and were even able to send the generals to prison.

Who knows what would have happened had the war turned out differently, but I think we can know that losing it signalled the end for the generals.
 
He has a point, though. Pinochet's constitution is still in place in Chile, even today. Argentina had a clean break with the military dictators after the Falklands War and were even able to send the generals to prison.

Who knows what would have happened had the war turned out differently, but I think we can know that losing it signalled the end for the generals.

The end was already there, the Falklands was an attempt to bolster support, I'm not saying it didn't help but to claim it's the reason the dictatorship fell is quite frankly insulting to many Argentinians.

Serious economic problems, mounting charges of corruption, public discontent and, finally, the country's 1982 defeat by the United Kingdom in the Falklands War following Argentina's unsuccessful attempt to seize the Falkland Islands all combined to discredit the Argentine military regime. Under strong public pressure, the junta lifted bans on political parties and gradually restored basic political liberties.
 
I agree with likefish that the boost a win in that war would have given them could well have enabled the dictatorship to limp on for a few more years. After all, Argentina was surrounded by other military dictatorships at the time, and there was no shortage of outside (US) covert support.

Military juntas of that kind who 'stepped in as a last resort to save the country' often talk as if they were planning a return to democracy - see Egypt today - but in fact delay and delay. The defeat gave them no more wriggle room for delay.
 
No 30000 people were killed by the junta no ones denying that.
What finished the junta off was defeat in the Falklands.
They' had killed or driven the opposition abroad the Falklands invasion was massively popular until it all went wrong.
Having the junta defeated not only destroyed the junta humiliated the military and made it impossible for the. Military to meddle in politcal affairs again.
 
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