Charity to give out food vouchers as poor ‘left hungry’

[KeyboardJockey]

Put it this way, I can't recall ever seeing any of the left's myriad outifts banging on about this sort of thing in the street. This tyep of poverty has been getting worse for years, and all I've seen the left shouting about in the street in recent years is the war, Gauntanao Bay and associated blahblah.

Poster you do have a point and the banging on about issues other than poverty has allowed the right to a) blame poverty on the immigrants b) fairly characterise a lot of the more visible shouty left as middle class naive do gooders c) gone along with the demonising of those who are thorugh no fault of their own now poor.

I take the view that not ALL the left is like this but a significant proportion of the mental resources of the left do seem to be taken up with international rather than local or regional issues. Thats not to say that these issues should be ignored but care shoudl be taken to link these issues together not push one at the expense of another.

 

[dennisr]

Put it this way

Put it another way - i don't see prats like you at my tenants assoc meetings, involved in the campaign i am part of against the sell off of my ha's housing stock, active in the local campaign I am involved in against the closure of local emergency mental health units and creeping privatisation of local hospitals, I don't see you in my union branch.

cos after all - "it's all hopeless" isn't it?

waster

 

[dennisr]

I take the view that not ALL the left is like this but a significant proportion of the mental resources of the left do seem to be taken up with international rather than local or regional issues. Thats not to say that these issues should be ignored but care shoudl be taken to link these issues together not push one at the expense of another.

The left in the union you walked out of and recently did not bother coming out on strike in support of (yes, yes, I know all the reasoning behind your scabbing, do i have this right mate?) have fought long and hard nationally against the centralisation of benefits form processing.

The iraq war was an issue - I don't see how the left could have ignored that issue (neither did millions of other people) - I don't see how campaigning on that issue is any different from the miriad other local issues I am involved in.

the two of you are like a depressives tag team - why don't you take a break - hey, you could at least get out and meet each other - maybe you could even find something positive to talk about over a pint.

 

[poster342002]

The iraq war was an issue - I don't see how the left could have ignored that issue (neither did millions of other people) - I don't see how campaigning on that issue is any different from the miriad other local issues I am involved in.

The problem arises when they turn themselves into a single-issue campaign around it to the exclusion of all else.

 

[dennisr]

The problem arises when they turn themselves into a single-issue campaign around it to the exclusion of all else.

as you are doing with your single issue internet campaign about the failure of the 'left'.

do you have anything useful to say on the subject of people being forced to live on food vouchers - or is it more of the sme old same old

I said before i should leave bothering to converse with you - and I really should take my own advice - your ramblings seem like the desperate attention seeking of a sad fecker i cannot do owt to assist to me

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Put it another way - i don't see prats like you at my tenants assoc meetings, involved in the campaign i am part of against the sell off of my ha's housing stock, active in the local campaign I am involved in against the closure of local emergency mental health units and creeping privatisation of local hospitals, I don't see you in my union branch.

cos after all - "it's all hopeless" isn't it?

waster

I agree that change can come about in the other areas you've mentioned and things are not 'hopeless'. However, where I disagree is with union branches. I've been that member who has gone to a branch for help only to be told that my steward has downgraded the fact that I'm starving and am having payment problems to push through a vote for funds (that I've paid into I might add) for some shit cause that I'm minimally sympathetic to and is more a political ego wank fantasy for the branch officers.

I'd like to add that this above complaint is not about PCS rather a previous 'union' I was a member of which was the NUJ.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

The left in the union you walked out of and recently did not bother coming out on strike in support of (yes, yes, I know all the reasoning behind your scabbing, do i have this right mate?) have fought long and hard nationally against the centralisation of benefits form processing.

Acutally I rejoined PCS. Found that the 'flying helper' they supplied was fabulous.

The iraq war was an issue - I don't see how the left could have ignored that issue (neither did millions of other people) - I don't see how campaigning on that issue is any different from the miriad other local issues I am involved in.

Agreed that it is an issue.

the two of you are like a depressives tag team - why don't you take a break - hey, you could at least get out and meet each other - maybe you could even find something positive to talk about over a pint.

Hey Poster fancy a pint some time?

 

[bluestreak]

Who are "the left"?

For the win.

 

[Blagsta]

Sorry, but in my experience the left is not interested in poverty unless it's taking place in Guantanamo Bay or they can crowbar some obscure - and bizarrely irrelevant - racial angle into the equation ("This measure will affect the most vulnerable in society - asylum seekers." type of thing).

you're nuts

 

[Blagsta]

Put it this way, I can't recall ever seeing any of the left's myriad outifts banging on about this sort of thing in the street. This type of poverty has been getting worse for years, and all I've seen the left shouting about in the street in recent years is the war, Gauntanao Bay and associated blahblah.

you missed the keep NHS public campaign, the defend council housing campaign, the support of striking workers etc then

 

[KeyboardJockey]

you missed the keep NHS public campaign, the defend council housing campaign, the support of striking workers etc then

Wasn't the big Defend Council Housing Campaign a Swappie Front organisation? I seem to recall such information being peddled around.

 

[dennisr]

Acutally I rejoined PCS. Found that the 'flying helper' they supplied was fabulous.

I'm chuffed to hear that - I know the branch is not an easy one to be in.

I hope you agree that the best way for a civil servants union to get a bit wider support is to genuinely take up and publicise the issues affecting the claimants as much as the staff (as well as the key staff issues - pensions, wages etc) - help people to to see what they have in common and get them to stand together more. I know that isn't an easy option - but may be the only one open to us

 

[Blagsta]

Wasn't the big Defend Council Housing Campaign a Swappie Front organisation? I seem to recall such information being peddled around.

So? They did a lot of good work. Quit the sectarian bullshit eh?

 

[dennisr]

Wasn't the big Defend Council Housing Campaign a Swappie Front organisation? I seem to recall such information being peddled around.

Not completely - not in my area (Southwark) anyway where it was completely independent. Like any similar campaign, if they become moribund groups can take them over to an extent and run them as an extention of their own organisation - if that is their method of doing things - which is definatly not healthy. But where individual SWP members have played a leading role in the DCH i must admit they did a good job - and certainly don't think they were simply interested in running the show for their organisation. The SWP members involved came across as genuine folk who wanted to win and did on some occasions - stopping sell offs in Camden I think (and thats speaking as someone who finds any praise for the SWP hard to say!!)

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Not completely - not in my area (Southwark) anyway where it was completely independent. Like any similar campaign, if they become moribund groups can take them over to an extent and run them as an extention of their own organisation - if that is their method of doing things - which is definatly not healthy. But where individual SWP members have played a leading role in the DCH i must admit they did a good job - and certainly don't think they were simply interested in running the show for their organisation. The SWP members involved came across as genuine folk who wanted to win and did on some occasions - stopping sell offs in Camden I think (and thats speaking as someone who finds any praise for the SWP hard to say!!)

Good post my dislike of the Swaps comes from seeing how they fucked up and lied over the campaigns to confront the bnp in Dagenham. They had a shit attitude to the locals and believed that only students could confront the bnp and went round putting out statements saying that the bnp were 'on the run ' in Dagenham.

Glad to hear that your local DCH group was independent.

 

[_angel_]

you missed the keep NHS public campaign, the defend council housing campaign, the support of striking workers etc then

Unfortunately these issues make less-than-headline news. The main voices of opposition we hear to the government are the anti-war voices.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Unfortunately these issues make less-than-headline news. The main voices of opposition we hear to the government are the anti-war voices.

V true.

 

[Blagsta]

Unfortunately these issues make less-than-headline news. The main voices of opposition we hear to the government are the anti-war voices.

Is that the fault of "the left"?

 

[treelover]

Dennis, you and some of the S/P are generally exceptions to the rule,


Blagsta

The majority of the left: a broad and fragile coalition including socialists, progressives, middle class campaigners, unions, anti-war/peace campaigners, anarchists, etc are largely concerned with international issues, Iraq, the environment, etc, poverty, welfare, etc, doesn't get a look in. I can cite the lack of support, in fact (wilful ignorance) for the campaign against the Welfare Reform Act as a concrete example of this neglect.The Coalition Against the Welfare Reform Act organised a protest two years ago at the LP conference in Manchester, despite many activists still being in the city after the anti-war demo protest on the Saturday, the protest held on the Monday saw only a few people of what is broadly called the left attend, (from the SP,) pretty sad, all in all.

 

[SpookyFrank]

How much was a packet of 20 fags back then? 2s 6d?

Given that this was about two months ago, I doubt it

 

[ViolentPanda]

No doubt you'll get someone arguing how it's perfectly possible to live healthily on £57 a week.

It is.







If you own a couple of acres of land and are healthy enough to work on it.
if you don't, you're bollixed.

 

[ViolentPanda]

A lot of the left bought the shite about how we've got "full employment" under this govt, when we quite clearly do not.

Depends on your criteria for "full employment".
If, as the govt appear to do, you gauge the figure purely by people employed working over 16 (IIRC) hours a week then "full employment" may well be almost (in statistical terms) achieved.
If you measure "full employment" through reference to secure full-time jobs with a liveable wage, then it's clearly untrue.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'd have stepped over my dead grandma to get to the dizzying heights of $57 a week when I was on the dole. I got $43 a week, those under 25 naturally requiring less money to live on

The DWP works on the assumption that younger=fitter and more able to sell their arse for a decent price, unlike us older folk, who can only charge a fiver a time.

 

[Blagsta]

Dennis, you and some of the S/P are generally exceptions to the rule,


Blagsta

The majority of the left: a broad and fragile coalition including socialists, progressives, middle class campaigners, unions, anti-war/peace campaigners, anarchists, etc are largely concerned with international issues, Iraq, the environment, etc, poverty, welfare, etc, doesn't get a look in. I can cite the lack of support, in fact (wilful ignorance) for the campaign against the Welfare Reform Act as a concrete example of this neglect.The Coalition Against the Welfare Reform Act organised a protest two years ago at the LP conference in Manchester, despite many activists still being in the city after the anti-war demo protest on the Saturday, the protest held on the Monday saw only a few people of what is broadly called the left attend, (from the SP,) pretty sad, all in all.

How well did you promote it? Did the media pick up on it?

 

[bluestreak]

The majority of the left: a broad and fragile coalition including socialists, progressives, middle class campaigners, unions, anti-war/peace campaigners, anarchists, etc are largely concerned with international issues, Iraq, the environment, etc, poverty, welfare, etc, doesn't get a look in. I can cite the lack of support, in fact (wilful ignorance) for the campaign against the Welfare Reform Act as a concrete example of this neglect.The Coalition Against the Welfare Reform Act organised a protest two years ago at the LP conference in Manchester, despite many activists still being in the city after the anti-war demo protest on the Saturday, the protest held on the Monday saw only a few people of what is broadly called the left attend, (from the SP,) pretty sad, all in all.

I think you're being unfair here.

Firstly the Anti-War stuff got lots of people across the spectrum politicised. However, it is a single issue for most people. Secondly a monday demo is a very different thing from a Saturday demo. Simply put, I don't believe you're comparing like-for-like.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I think you're being unfair here.

Firstly the Anti-War stuff got lots of people across the spectrum politicised. However, it is a single issue for most people. Secondly a monday demo is a very different thing from a Saturday demo. Simply put, I don't believe you're comparing like-for-like.

I agree with you there blue. The anti war stuff did politicise people but the opportunity was missed to expand the anger about the war into other areas.

agree that comparing a monday demo to a Saturday demo isn't comparing like with like.

 

[bluestreak]

Yeah. Down in Worthing we tried to subtly convert those drawn to our meetings - the onus had to be on the War first and foremost, and we didn't want to alienate people, but we wanted to make the connection between the War and the economic state. It kind of worked, though a couple of SWP types didn't help. IMO, obv.

 

[Nigel]

Unemployment & Mental Health!!!!!!

A development which I think is extremly dangerous, is tryinng to get long term unemployed (about 6 Months & over) on either incapacity benefit and/or Disability Living Allowance:If you don't want some short term agency work on the minimum wage then you must be mad. People were arguing for this in the early 1990's when I worked at a UBO office, when there were lots of unemployed caused mainly by the de-industrialisation in Britain, to deal with the numbers. This could be used as a way of cutting back DSS to a skeleton to what it is.

 

[Nigel]

Yeah. Down in Worthing we tried to subtly convert those drawn to our meetings - the onus had to be on the War first and foremost, and we didn't want to alienate people, but we wanted to make the connection between the War and the economic state. It kind of worked, though a couple of SWP types didn't help. IMO, obv.

Everyone from the BNP, UKIP, Wet Tories, right the way across the political spectrum to th Ultra Left opposes the Military Conflict in Iraq. I'm not saying that it is not an issue to fight on, however bread and butter issues should not be sidelined.

 

[treelover]

I think i have been misunderstood here, i wasn't comparing the two demos, i was pointing out that people who were still in the city after the A/W demo could
have attended the monday one,

Blagsta, disabled people generally have less resources than abled bodies and disabled claimants even less, but yes, the A/w demo had been flyered, etc, i think to an extent some of the left groups wanted to ignore it, not part of the programme. Its a major problem that needs tackling.