Frankie Jack
Not a bloke..
Our lives v their jobs. No contest innit.
campaign against welfare cuts and poverty
- Thread starter Blagsta
- Start date
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Sadly, all too often there isn't any contest.
Problem is, we've been progressively-indoctrinated, since Thatcher, to become more self-interested and individualistic, so the attitude of "fuck you Jack, I'm alright" is far more prevalent these days than it was when Peter Sellers was in "I'm Alright Jack!" back in 1959. It's horrific, but some state employees really do believe that if they step out of line, then they'll put themselves in the same boat as us. As they know from their experience sitting across the counter from claimants, it isn't a bed of roses.
Frankie Jack
Not a bloke..
Agreed. Most of my JC advisers are reasonably fair it has to be said and I've managed to get out of signing up to UJM so far by stating all the valid reasons for not using the vile site. I'm expecting a sanction quite soon though as there's only so long any of us can escape one in this area with around 100 sanction hit each week out of 2000 or so claimants.
Four ex-JC+ staff from my local one now working with the area Work Provider, Ingeus, in the Glasgow office.
Four ex-JC+ staff from my local one now working with the area Work Provider, Ingeus, in the Glasgow office.
You've had no dealings with them, yet you feel qualified to tell them what actions might be in the interests of their members?
Well done, that man!
Don't you get it? The membership, like the union, are between a rock and a hard place. They're looking down the barrel of another ten to thirty thousand compulsory redundancies. As is usual when large employers are looking to "lose" staff, management are pouncing on every tiny disciplinary or procedural infraction, and attempting to use those issues to lever people out of their jobs with out having to pay redundancy. Very few workers are going to stick their necks out beyond what they already do, because frankly they want to keep their jobs as long as possible. Working in a job that destroys your soul still seems better to many people than being on the other side of the jobcentre counter. All this has been very obviously the case for the last 3+ years.
Yes, I do 'get it', I'm not fucking stupid.
We are witness to a situation of asolute crisis and I am suggesting the PCS do something. I'm well aware that their jobs are on the line, but that isn't going to get any better any time soon is it? Is Labour likely to usher in a fresher regime under 'tougher than the tories ' Rachel Reeves?
So either PCS members sit back and keep their heads down while administering these sorts of decisions or someone, somewhere, somehow, in that organisation says something. What other choices are there? I'm not advocating any individual adviser get up and shout 'fight the power!' before getting disciplined and perhaps sacked. I'm suggesting the PCS leadership take a stand. If they ballot then members can vote in secret without their managers knowing, if they are worried voting might mark them. That way the leadership can keep members safe. Even IDS won't sacke the entire PCS contingent of the DWP en masse. Surely that, at the very least, is a start?
If not, what's the alternative? The misery continues - for everyone. The staff keep their heads down trying to sruvive a climate of fear that is certainly only going to get worse while claimants end up increasingly desperate and resorting to violence toward staff.
I realise it is easy to say, but I'm not a member of the PCS nor a DWP staffer, I am just giving my opinion and I am perfectly entitled to do so. All I know is that something somewhere will have to give. I don't want anyone to get fired, but which is worse: someone in the DWP loses their job, or someone already in financial dire straits starves to death. That's the cold hard reality. The situation is already at crisis point and it wont' get any better, we have yet to see Universal Credit come in, or mass workfare, or barely any of the changes to the public sector. If we get another term of this coalition or heaven forfend a pure tory government it's going to make today look like the sound of fucking music!
Frankie Jack
Not a bloke..
Scotland is facing a ‘humanitarian crisis’ caused by poverty
As this is only an estimate I believe the real figures possibly work out to around 20% of the population, 5.2 million at last count.
Oh and yeah. I'm one of them.
As this is only an estimate I believe the real figures possibly work out to around 20% of the population, 5.2 million at last count.
Oh and yeah. I'm one of them.
Get what? That i don't want people to lose their jobs. I've just said as much.
What's your solution then? What do you suggest?
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
no you don't get what has just been explained to you by VP
saying you've never had dealings with unions then expecting them to do something for those who are non members is a bit daft no? it would be great if it could happen but it won't so is not a solution
I think you're missing the point: the environment in the DWP is toxic which means that it's a horrible place for these people to work - assuming they don't enjoy treating the claimants as they now seem to be doing (some probably do but then they would never help claimants anyway). This is not just about helping people that have no affiliation to the union, it's about helping themsles. By fighting IDS's ridiculous regime they make their own jobs more secure and they improve their working environment. That's a win win for everyonte.
If you're working in a system that puts your own job at risk unless you dish out sanctions according to target then it's in your own interests to see that regime changed just as it is for the victims of those targets.
Or nothing changes and everyone involved suffers, and will suffer evenmore whenuniversal Credit comes in which will exacerbate the current delays and backlogs to breaking point (and beyond).
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
very valiant and even "If you're working in a system that puts your own job at risk unless you dish out sanctions according to target then it's in your own interests to see that regime changed just as it is for the victims of those targets." is true what do you think they should do?
"Or nothing changes and everyone involved suffers, and will suffer evenmore whenuniversal Credit comes in which will exacerbate the current delays and backlogs to breaking point (and beyond)."
welcome to trade unionism in the uk for the vast majority
lots of work places are toxic, unions are generally ineffective and the bosses know this. people are desperate and as someone said however shit their job is they are thanking their 'lucky' stars that they are that side of the desk so that they can feed and house themselves and their family and not subjected to the hoops and bullshit they have to put the people they see through. and if 1/5/10 people working in a job centre make a stand, what happens when the other 50/100/200 look the other way, will not stand or don't feel they can risk standing alongside their colleagues?
i'm sorry it is not the way you want it to be and think it should be.
I wish there was more solidarity and action but from experience there is very little and everything is set up against those that do try, even people on the same side.
e2a-finished sentence
"Or nothing changes and everyone involved suffers, and will suffer evenmore whenuniversal Credit comes in which will exacerbate the current delays and backlogs to breaking point (and beyond)."
welcome to trade unionism in the uk for the vast majority
lots of work places are toxic, unions are generally ineffective and the bosses know this. people are desperate and as someone said however shit their job is they are thanking their 'lucky' stars that they are that side of the desk so that they can feed and house themselves and their family and not subjected to the hoops and bullshit they have to put the people they see through. and if 1/5/10 people working in a job centre make a stand, what happens when the other 50/100/200 look the other way, will not stand or don't feel they can risk standing alongside their colleagues?
i'm sorry it is not the way you want it to be and think it should be.
I wish there was more solidarity and action but from experience there is very little and everything is set up against those that do try, even people on the same side.
e2a-finished sentence
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This isn't about what "i" want nor how "i" think is should be. This is about what we all want.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Disciplinary infractions are being cracked down on unmercifully. This includes not meeting sanction "not-targets" w/r/t front-office staff, but includes minor stuff like a manager deciding you're taking too many toilet breaks - Reasons for initiating a disciplinary process and taking it all the way to dismissal are being fished for.
Following on from said disciplinary action, how do you think a dismissal from the Civil Service looks on someone's employment record? Well, it's pretty much a death knell as far as getting a decent job is concerned - in the current climate, a death knell on getting any sort of job. You won't be as much of a leper as a former convict, but close enough.
There's no security to be found in fighting the regime. Labour isn't going to magically reverse all the redundancies, take on loads of new staff and enforce decent working standards - they initiated a lot of the cultural changes in the CS that have facilitated people being ridden over roughshod.
It's great to think compassionately about your fellow humans. It's difficult to do so, though, when the line between the victims and yourself is so thin it's almost invisible.
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
really? why do you think that? it is easy to be fooled that "everyone" is disgusted by the treatment of those on welfare and that it needs to be stopped but they are not and some want it to go further.
you may think that and sorry to piss on your fire again but it is not "what we all want". it is what you want, i want, people on this thread etc want but a lot of people don't give a shit, they are ok. a lot of people have bought the governments shit about benefit claimants and a whole load more have lapped up the media portrayal.
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
i honestly don't mean to patronise Awesome Wells but can i ask how old you are and what kind of work you have done if lucky to have had employment? thanks
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
As a former union rep, I can say with some certainty that your "we" isn't as all-encompassing as you believe. In fact experience tells me that even during crisis, a majority of union members are in survival mode - they keep their heads down and do their best not to get involved with ANY workplace politics, because workplace politics (and union activism in general) gets you noticed. People may "want" things to change, but they won't engage in helping bring change about, because they still believe they've got too much to lose; that bad things will happen to others, but not to them.
Why?
Again, I am not suggesting that the PCS leadership tell their members what to do. I said to just vote on it at least that would be something. If they all vote against it, for reasons of job security or whatever, then that's entirely legitimiate, if disappointing.
I understand why people are cynical. I understand that not all members would support strike action, but there doesn't even seem to be any impetus to do anything. Consequently the environment will remain toxic and only get worse.
Being in survival mode is one thing, but how long can that last? Until the next election? Ok, then what? What happens if Labour doesn't win the next election?
What happens if it does?
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
what do you think is going to happen?? nothing
things don't change in "democracies" when another of the major parties get in
ever heard the phrase "if voting changed anything they'd ban it" ?
there may be experts, doctors, the united nations etc all saying "cuts are bad mkay" etc but they are still happening
it is ideological
and if you think union members will awaken if labour got in and things will magically start improving then you are seriously naiive
things don't change in "democracies" when another of the major parties get in
ever heard the phrase "if voting changed anything they'd ban it" ?
there may be experts, doctors, the united nations etc all saying "cuts are bad mkay" etc but they are still happening
it is ideological
and if you think union members will awaken if labour got in and things will magically start improving then you are seriously naiive
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
context
You'll have to do better than that. What does my background have to do with anything?
Can you please stop patronising me.
I never said the unions would take action.
For the third time, all I suggested was they vote on it. My expressing this is not contingent on it's likelihood.
For the third time, all I suggested was they vote on it. My expressing this is not contingent on it's likelihood.
I've no idea what would happen if the PCS went on strike. Maybe nothing. Maybe something.
What else do you suggest?
What else do you suggest?
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
so after people have taken time to explain to you why your rash expectations of unions won't work you now expect people to give you solutions too?
i don't claim to have them, very sorry...
maybe join local anti cuts group - some of them have had some success in some areas
maybe join or start a local campaign to help people have access to correct info and their rights to welfare?
accompany people to their sanction meetings to provide support and be a witness?
volunteer at a food bank?
start a food not bombs/free food and info stall for the homeless, hungry and destitute if one not already running?
write to various people and turn up at meetings asking searching questions, pointing out what effect it is having and what they are doing to mitigate the effects?
expose the voting record of shameful mp's and councillors to their potential voters?
or you could have one half baked idea based on something you don't really understand the (crap) working of and then start chucking your toys out of the pram when people explain the flaws and beg to disagree with you
is getting union members in job centres to take strike action in solidarity with claimants honestly your only brainwave?
i don't claim to have them, very sorry...
maybe join local anti cuts group - some of them have had some success in some areas
maybe join or start a local campaign to help people have access to correct info and their rights to welfare?
accompany people to their sanction meetings to provide support and be a witness?
volunteer at a food bank?
start a food not bombs/free food and info stall for the homeless, hungry and destitute if one not already running?
write to various people and turn up at meetings asking searching questions, pointing out what effect it is having and what they are doing to mitigate the effects?
expose the voting record of shameful mp's and councillors to their potential voters?
or you could have one half baked idea based on something you don't really understand the (crap) working of and then start chucking your toys out of the pram when people explain the flaws and beg to disagree with you
is getting union members in job centres to take strike action in solidarity with claimants honestly your only brainwave?
I don't want to get into an interweb bunfight about this, it's stupid. We are all on the same side against this cancer of a government. BUt something has to be done otherwise people really will start to turn on each other - including more cases of claimant vs adviser violence. This helps noone.
Why are you so angry?
My suggesting something on a message board doesn't preclude or prevent any other form of action.
Fanshen
New Member
Hi all,
I've been reading/lurking here for a bit over a year (belated thanks for the SWP thread, you helped convince me I wasn't being irrational or failing by choosing to quit).
So I thought I'd join because I found an interesting tidbit that I haven't seen picked up anywhere that seemed relevant for this thread. I bought the Financial Times on Feb 23rd to see if there was more information about Ukraine from over the weekend (read the enemy & all that). Not something I normally do but was getting frustrated.
Anyway, while it wasn't so enlightening on that front, in one of the supplement bits there was an article titled 'L&G plans to begin lending to larger SMEs'. It's an article based on an interview with the chief exec of Legal & General, about lending to small businesses and the like. But, tucked away in the last paragraphs, was this:
Not sure how that fits with Universal credit - as a complement? their 'Plan B'? I thought it might be worth the mention anyway.
I've been reading/lurking here for a bit over a year (belated thanks for the SWP thread, you helped convince me I wasn't being irrational or failing by choosing to quit).
So I thought I'd join because I found an interesting tidbit that I haven't seen picked up anywhere that seemed relevant for this thread. I bought the Financial Times on Feb 23rd to see if there was more information about Ukraine from over the weekend (read the enemy & all that). Not something I normally do but was getting frustrated.
Anyway, while it wasn't so enlightening on that front, in one of the supplement bits there was an article titled 'L&G plans to begin lending to larger SMEs'. It's an article based on an interview with the chief exec of Legal & General, about lending to small businesses and the like. But, tucked away in the last paragraphs, was this:
Not sure how that fits with Universal credit - as a complement? their 'Plan B'? I thought it might be worth the mention anyway.
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