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Calais: Migration and the UK Border

SpookyFrank said:
Even if there was a way to get Calais completely sealed off to anyone without a passport, there's plenty of other ports. And undocumented migrants go through those ports to get into the UK all the time. There's no hysteria about that though, because people don't really notice it. It's only because of the giant shanty town in Calais, itself a result of tightened border controls, that 'illegal' migration has entered the public consciousness. And all the solutions people come up with (David Cameron's latest plan: more fences, more sniffer dogs) are just new ways of making the situation worse.

As for the people who want to 'send the army in' to a refugee camp, they need to stop for a second and consider what they're actually suggesting. Because what they are suggesting would be a war crime, only without even the feeble justification that there's a war on.
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My dad was aware of trawlermen in the '70s who used to stop off at Hook of Holland, pick up half a dozen Sylheti illegals (who'd usually ended up there via the Cape), and land them on the north Norfolk coast. In the '80s they switched to shipping in bales of spliff. There will be plenty of freebooters on both sides of the Channel who'll rise to any challenge from the state, if there's money to be made.
 
Immigration law in the UK makes it very difficult to come here and join your family members suspect some of those in Calais are attempting to do that -

since the regime change in Libya there is now no barrier to leaving plus the nationalities of the people in Calais should give an indication of why they fled
 
A woman stopped me in the street today saying she was a refugee and had no money for nappies or food. I bought her some stuff from Pret a Manger, feel bad a couldnt have helped her more.

I suspect we're going to see more and more of this

Grim
 
sovereignb said:
Not every asylum seeker is coming from those circumstances...you really are being naïve if you believe that.
Many in my experience are coming for a better life - access to education, work and to an extent, housing, under the guise of an asylum claim. Lets just say, that you were genuinely in fear of your life in the UK...would travel under a lorry for thousands miles, risking your life, or would you want to get to the closest, safest place as possible???

Of course, if you had family and friends in that place far far away, would/should you not go to them? Or should you just pretend you don't know anyone and have resources used on you that could be used for those genuinely in need?
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What is experience and evidence to open border believers?
campanula said:
This is surely just the start of an immense diaspora as climate change and resource wars really start to bite. Even now, on a very mundane but nonetheless telling level, I have to wonder where more people are going to live. Housing is an issue which can only mean a class of exploitative landlords looking at influxes of desperate people and thinking how many they can squeeze in every room. I guess my recent brush with the buy to let scenario (a shocking, shoddy business) as well as housing issues on a more personal level, has left me increasingly anxious with no real appreciation of just how much building space is available in the UK (given the insane property bubble, any answers are going to be leveraged in some horrible way)...but I do struggle to find a generosity of spirit when squeezed (and then I obviously feel ashamed as my situation is in no way comparable)...but, being completely honest, I am conflicted on many levels about the whole question of borders. I also have no real idea about population pressures, amount of space per capita, and so on and so forth - would appreciate more info really.
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this is going to happen at a time of massive technological change which is going to reduce the need for unskilled labour, Uber, driverless trucks, more factory automation, there is going to be permanent unemployment/under employment for maybe millions, how can societies sustain those level of immigration?
 
I do think the weird distinction between 'genuine refugees' and 'economic migrants is rubbish though - surely starving, freezing or living hopelessly with no work, no chance, no future is relevant and worthy of fleeing from - is this also not torture? I don't have any hope that solutions will be found as long as the issues remain resolutely local and micro-managed. I honestly can see no easy answers apart from immense structural global change...and what are the chances of any sort of joined up thinking when everything is reduced to short=term damage limitations and vague passing the buck. Camps! Blockades FFS.
 
Yeah but it's very difficult to present merely starving and freezing to death as a problem worthy of aid - after all people do it all the time in Britain. Visceral stories of torture though, sends shivers up the spine - just imagine.
 
We are going to take £36 week away from familes who have failed assylum thats really going to stop people:facepalm:

The appeals system is fucked up in the first place so it takes ages to get a hearing and often they get the decision monumentally wrong at the first hearing anyway:(
Then we don't deport people who have failed to get assylum in any sort reasonable timeframe if your going to say you cant stay then you need to get them to leave if we cant or wont do that, we need a better plan than leaving people in a half life situation where they cant be legal but cant stay.
 
campanula said:
I do think the weird distinction between 'genuine refugees' and 'economic migrants is rubbish though - surely starving, freezing or living hopelessly with no work, no chance, no future is relevant and worthy of fleeing from - is this also not torture?
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The distinction is a paper one in most cases, manufactured in a bureaucrat's mind, and with little applicability to the nuances of reality.

I don't have any hope that solutions will be found as long as the issues remain resolutely local and micro-managed. I honestly can see no easy answers apart from immense structural global change...and what are the chances of any sort of joined up thinking when everything is reduced to short=term damage limitations and vague passing the buck. Camps! Blockades FFS.
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No chance of "joined-up thinking", because politicians either side of the Channel are too gutless to address issues on anything but an interim basis.
 
Calais migrant crisis: UK and France urge EU action

The action they're urging seems to be tougher measures (from southern European nations, presumably) to prevent migrants crossing the Med from arriving in Europe in the first place, and this is to be complimented by extra security measures around Calais and
that the long-term solution would be to persuade would-be migrants hoping for a better life in Europe that "our streets are not paved with gold"
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Wasn't it just a few months ago that Italy was calling for joint EU action to share the burden of refugees more equitably across all EU nations, and the response then was a resounding "no/non/nein"?

Given that this is a European issue, sooner or later the EU is going to have to deal it with in a coherent way which will have to include some sort of system for claiming asylum in the EU as a whole, and a centralised system of resettlement in specific countries (although this would depend on the co-operation and social responsibility we're still supposed to believe the EU stands for but which we appear to be getting further and further away from).
 
likesfish said:
We are going to take £36 week away from familes who have failed assylum thats really going to stop people:facepalm:

The appeals system is fucked up in the first place so it takes ages to get a hearing and often they get the decision monumentally wrong at the first hearing anyway:(
Then we don't deport people who have failed to get assylum in any sort reasonable timeframe if your going to say you cant stay then you need to get them to leave if we cant or wont do that, we need a better plan than leaving people in a half life situation where they cant be legal but cant stay.
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This is a huge part of the problem. No one I have worked with has chosen to return after they've exhausted all appeal rights...and there will always be a rogue landlord or boss paying £2 per hour to exploit that fact. The only time people do get picked up is if they get caught illegally working or in the criminal justice system, but then they'll probably appeal again, resorting in deportation or stay on a Human Rights ground.

The system is a clogged up mess.
 
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campanula said:
I do think the weird distinction between 'genuine refugees' and 'economic migrants is rubbish though - surely starving, freezing or living hopelessly with no work, no chance, no future is relevant and worthy of fleeing from - is this also not torture? I don't have any hope that solutions will be found as long as the issues remain resolutely local and micro-managed. I honestly can see no easy answers apart from immense structural global change...and what are the chances of any sort of joined up thinking when everything is reduced to short=term damage limitations and vague passing the buck. Camps! Blockades FFS.
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An economic migrant isn't necessarily coming from freezing, starving conditions with no prospects. Wanting more than what you have doesn't mean you have nothing. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting more, but are we able to adequately accommodate the wants as opposed to needs?

Ive worked with people where it becomes apparent they have actually come from educated, well to do, wealthy families. Then there are those who choose to exploit and get involved with criminal activity. Of course, there the ones that have come from nothing or have clearly experienced trauma. I know which group I would rather focus my energy on helping the most.

I think the powers that be actually like things the way they are. For a start, it breeds cheap labour and division amongst the people.
 
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remember that cyber nations game that had an option with a " who wants to be a citizen reality game" where the border was lined win minefields etc and filmed 24/7 with migrants who survived the death traps winning cash prizes and automatic citizenship:facepalm::D.

hopefully none of the grown ups remember that:hmm:
 
cynicaleconomy said:
This time last week I would have argued for a higher fence, but the more this goes on, the more I think fuck it, just give everyone at Calais citizenship so that they can come here and work. It's the quickest way to relieve the suffering. Never going to happen though. :(
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this from the Fleet Street Fox Mirror article

1) There are about 5,000 stateless people in Calais

And 64.1million people in the UK. That means if we let in every single person who’d currently like us to, the population would explode by 0.000078%.


That’s not a flood. It’s barely a drip. 


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http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/not-migrant-hordes--people-6165167
 
likesfish said:
remember that cyber nations game that had an option with a " who wants to be a citizen reality game" where the border was lined win minefields etc and filmed 24/7 with migrants who survived the death traps winning cash prizes and automatic citizenship:facepalm::D.

hopefully none of the grown ups remember that:hmm:
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the architect of iran-contra was running an actual 'terrorism market' where people could speculate on the fortunes and fates of various groups (it was shut down upon oversight comitee). These people are a long way past the borders of sanity. Daarpa should be called Derpa
 
DownwardDog said:
That's a bullshit point though as it assumes nobody else will turn up after you've dished out UK passports to the first 5,000. If that were the policy (Theresa May stood in a Coquelles bus stop handing out passports) how many people per year do you think would make their way to France to partake of it?
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dunno, maybe we'd end up taking in as many refugees per capita as say Germany, but fuckloads less than say Turkey.
 
DownwardDog said:
That's a bullshit point though as it assumes nobody else will turn up after you've dished out UK passports to the first 5,000. If that were the policy (Theresa May stood in a Coquelles bus stop handing out passports) how many people per year do you think would make their way to France to partake of it?
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Why do the numbers matter? When people are in need of sanctuary they should be given it. The French choosing to drag their feet processing asylum applications, which is in turn leaving thousands of people destitute and desperate to come to the UK. We should act like a civilised people and grant the migrants the right to live and work here.
 
Not a friendly country. Now the tories are enacting legislation forcing UK landlords to evict people who are in the UK illegally which will only serve to put them on the streets rather than sending them back where they came from.

And there are a few thousand people in Calais wanting to come to the UK, many of whom should probably be granted the right to stay but rather than assessing them in Calais and progressing their applications we are instead engaged in building more fences to keep them in France while our road hauliers are seeing their businesses stagnate and holidaymakers and the people of Kent are suffering massive disruption.

And this is taking place while France, Germany and Italy all take vastly more African incomers than the UK does and they don't seem to be complaining about it. Indeed even Sweden seems to take its share of African migrants in better humour than Britain does.

Migration from Africa to Europe is not going to go away, indeed it may be the sustained issue of the next 100 years.

Should Britain under the tories perhaps, after evicting them from their homes, make them live in a ghetto, and perhaps force them to sew identification markets onto their coats?
 
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Pickman's model said:
this will end in tears, mark my words
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There are already tears aplenty, but I share your fears that this situation will come to a head with some Lampedusa-esque catastrophe. At that point the national consciousness, if there is such a thing, will know that we had every opportunity to resolve the situation years ago, that every possible warning was given. Rather than a sudden outpouring of sympathy and humanity, I suspect the result would be another lurch in the direction of reactionary madness.

People will not thank the migrants for bringing the consequences of their own selfishness into such clear focus, they will be angry that the contradictions at the heart of our inclusive, aspirational society have been laid bare. Already we see how most people are not angry about the conditions people are facing in Calais but at the fact they have to look at it as they drive past. Taking responsibility is not an option, we learn that from our politicians, and just like with so many other things our collective efforts will be directed at hiding or silencing victims rather than seeking justice and the prevention of any future crimes.
 
Welcome to the Croydon 'jungle'.

The vermin's "response" is to privatise citizenship checks and open the door to a (pre 1957 Rent Act) situation of instant evictions without court order. All spun as protection for these vulnerable people from the "minority" of rogue landlords.
Clark said: “We are determined to crack down on rogue landlords who make money out of illegal immigration – exploiting vulnerable people and undermining our immigration system. In future, landlords will be required to ensure that the people they rent their properties to are legally entitled to be in the country. We will also require them to meet their basic responsibilities as landlords, cracking down on those who rent out dangerous, dirty and overcrowded properties.”
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As venal as they are incompetent.
 
'Slum landlords currently occupying seats in the House of Commons or House of Lords will be exempt from these enforcement measures, so as to avoid any conflict of interests'
 
cynicaleconomy said:
This time last week I would have argued for a higher fence, but the more this goes on, the more I think fuck it, just give everyone at Calais citizenship so that they can come here and work. It's the quickest way to relieve the suffering. Never going to happen though. :(
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Wouldnt that just encourage more people to travel in life threatening ways to get here? That surely wouldn't be the end of the fiasco.
And what kind of housing would they get once here?
 
Drove past the camp yesterday, as you drive to the ferry port it is just a fortress for a few kms and behind it, just a stones throw tbh is a very bleak sight to behold.

I admit to feeling confused about the whole thing previously but when you see the squalor desperate people are living in and what they are putting themselves through night after night just to get to this sodding country well, I dunno. I feel pretty convinced those who are headbanging about it should get on a boat and go see for themselves and if they still lack empathy they are worthless shits
 
weltweit said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...ts-policy-on-asylum-seekers-is-the-worst.html

Even Sweden takes nearly double the number of asylum seekers than the UK!
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That's the numbers of applications though. Not all are successful. France rejects more applications than the UK does, as a precentage of the total number. Even so, France still grants asylum to more people in absolute terms I believe. But in the UK asylum seekers have access to a basic level of state support, in France there is much less support so if you don't have the resources to support yourself for the months or years a claim can take to be processed then you're in trouble. And if you're on any kind of government database elsewhere in the Schengen area (most of western Europe) your claim will most likely be thrown out straight away and you may get put in detention or deported back to your point of entry to the EU.

The whole thing is a tangled fucking mess, especially when you see it at a European level. We've had some basic training about what to tell people who ask us about claiming asylum in the UK but if I'm asked about the process in France or Belgium and the chances of success there I have to hold my hands up and say I really don't know. All I've heard is anecdotes from people who have tried their luck in Germany, France or Belgium already. Most of the stories seem to involve being beaten by police, or attacked by dogs or whatever. The jungles in Calais are grim, the worst places I've seen in my life. The crossing to England is difficult and dangerous and everyone knows that people die trying. People wouldn't be doing this if there were better options for them.

I believe there are similar migrant shanty towns in Copenhagen, presumably filled with people hoping to get Sweden as Denmark is a pretty dreadful place to be a non-white migrant by all accounts. So even if you choose to head for Sweden instead of the UK, still you've got the problem of getting there in the first place.
 
SpookyFrank said:
That's the numbers of applications though. Not all are successful. France rejects more applications than the UK does, as a precentage of the total number. Even so, France still grants asylum to more people in absolute terms I believe. But in the UK asylum seekers have access to a basic level of state support, in France there is much less support so if you don't have the resources to support yourself for the months or years a claim can take to be processed then you're in trouble. And if you're on any kind of government database elsewhere in the Schengen area (most of western Europe) your claim will most likely be thrown out straight away and you may get put in detention or deported back to your point of entry to the EU.

The whole thing is a tangled fucking mess, especially when you see it at a European level. We've had some basic training about what to tell people who ask us about claiming asylum in the UK but if I'm asked about the process in France or Belgium and the chances of success there I have to hold my hands up and say I really don't know. All I've heard is anecdotes from people who have tried their luck in Germany, France or Belgium already. Most of the stories seem to involve being beaten by police, or attacked by dogs or whatever. The jungles in Calais are grim, the worst places I've seen in my life. The crossing to England is difficult and dangerous and everyone knows that people die trying. People wouldn't be doing this if there were better options for them.

I believe there are similar migrant shanty towns in Copenhagen, presumably filled with people hoping to get Sweden as Denmark is a pretty dreadful place to be a non-white migrant by all accounts. So even if you choose to head for Sweden instead of the UK, still you've got the problem of getting there in the first place.
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There probably needs to be an EU solution to this issue, leaving it to member states doesn't seem to be solving it. Would you agree with that SpookyFrank?
 
weltweit said:
There probably needs to be an EU solution to this issue, leaving it to member states doesn't seem to be solving it. Would you agree with that SpookyFrank?
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Yes I would agree with that. But with European politics currently dominated by the centre right and lots of anti-migrant populism, it would be politicial suicide for any national leader to be seen supporting the idea of a unified migration and asylum policy which would result in their country being obliged to take in more asylum seekers. And unless Merkel is on board, it won't happen. Merkel is not on board, nor Cameron nor Hollande.

Cameron and pals are telling France to do something about the people in Calais. He doesn't mean they should look after them he means, 'make them go away, we don't care how'. Nobody is treating this as a humanitarian problem, because nobody is treating the people involved as humans. We all know how that usually ends up.
 
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