Calais: Migration and the UK Border

[bluescreen]

What is your organisation, SpookyFrank? Does it accept donations?

 

[bluescreen]

I forget, it's probably breach of forum rules or something, so please pm me if so.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Wouldnt that just encourage more people to travel in life threatening ways to get here? That surely wouldn't be the end of the fiasco.
And what kind of housing would they get once here?

They don't need encouragement because the migration crisis is driven by war and poverty abroad. Describe to me the scenario in which it would be preferable to stay in Syria or Eritrea rather than risk your life to come to Europe. You'd have to make this country as bad as or worse than either of those two places to slow the rate of migration. In short, they will come regardless of how badly we treat them because whatever it is we do, we will never be as bad as what they've come from.

As for housing, we need to build more of them. It's really that simple. We managed to do it under much tighter financial constraints in the post-WW2 era, and we can do the same again if our politicians had the will. Prefabs can be thrown up practically over night if necessary.

 

[SpookyFrank]

What is your organisation, SpookyFrank? Does it accept donations?

I will chat to you about this via PM if you don't mind.

 

[red & green]

If they had their fingerprints taken in a Euro country they will show up on the Eurodac computer therefore they will be sent back to the country where their fingerprints were taken if they get to England - Dublin Convention

 

[kebabking]

If they had their fingerprints taken in a Euro country they will show up on the Eurodac computer therefore they will be sent back to the country where their fingerprints were taken if they get to England - Dublin Convention

which is why the Italians choose not to record the identities of those who arrive on their shores. they know those people won't choose to stay in Italy and are intending to get to the UK, or Germany, or Scandanavia, so they allow them to go unrecorded safe in the knowledge that if/when they are detained in France or wherever, no record of them having first arrived in Italy will exist, and therefore they won't be returned to Italy, as as far as the law is concerned, they have magically appeared in some other EU state.

its pass-the-parcel, but nobody wants to be holding the parcel when the music stops - the music stopping in this case being that when their details are first entered onto the EuroDac database, they become the problem of the country entering their details.

one of the R4 PM reporters did a good week-long report on following a group of migrants from southern Italy to Calais, one of the most interesting things about their experience was that despite fallingto in the hands of various police agencies at a number of points during their journey, none of those different police agencies seemed at all keen on recording their details. remarkable...

 

[red & green]

The Italians are fingerprinting those coming off the boats if they take them to detention centres

 

[kebabking]

The Italians are fingerprinting those coming off the boats if they take them to detention centres

be interesting to know that proportion of those who come into contact with the Italian authorities are placed in detention centres...

 

[red & green]

FYI

http://www.statewatch.org/news/2015/may/gdp-med-asylum-detention-backgrounder.pdf

 

[SpookyFrank]

one of the R4 PM reporters did a good week-long report on following a group of migrants from southern Italy to Calais, one of the most interesting things about their experience was that despite fallingto in the hands of various police agencies at a number of points during their journey, none of those different police agencies seemed at all keen on recording their details. remarkable...

It's not unheard of for migrants to find their way from the care of the local police force directly into the care of some friendly people traffickers without passing go as it were. The officers involved presumably receive a modest referral fee for aiding the traffickers in their humanitarian endeavours.

 

[SpookyFrank]

FYI

http://www.statewatch.org/news/2015/may/gdp-med-asylum-detention-backgrounder.pdf

Thanks for that, very useful.

 

[alfajobrob]

I would be interested to know if the unborn child who died when his mother fell from a lorry was an economic migrant or a 'genuine' refugee according to the standards of people who believe in such categories.

Could you clear this up for us alfajobrob ? I want to know if I should be sad about this child's death or if it was his own fault for wanting better economic prospects.

Of course it's sad and you are entitled to feel upset.

That fact is bullshit.

Really.

 

[alfajobrob]

I would be interested to know if the unborn child who died when his mother fell from a lorry was an economic migrant or a 'genuine' refugee according to the standards of people who believe in such categories.

Could you clear this up for us alfajobrob ? I want to know if I should be sad about this child's death or if it was his own fault for wanting better economic prospects.

Emotive language much?

 

[alfajobrob]

Are you white?
If so you could walk into Canada, the US, Australia or Russia pretty easily, and live there as an illegal knowing your skin colour will protect you from a majority of harassment.
The people in the Jungles hardly came here on a whim, either. Most of them made rational choices based on being unable to stay in their homelands.



How do you define "economic migrant"? How do you define "asylum seeker"? Take a look at how the govt defines (and re-defines) them, and you should (unless you're dim) notice that a lot of room is left in order to treat asylum seekers as economic migrants. Strange, that.

I define an economic migrant as a person that has moved to a specific country passing through other countries that offer asylum and help. They have had the offer of help but they decide to move somewhere else. They can be both asylum seekers or refugees but they could of stopped 1000 miles ago so that makes it an economic or preferential choice.

I am white, male, english and yet funnily enough don't feel any guilt....maybe because I'm not from a posh wanker background

I am aware that Britain has spread English as a language throughout the world...I don't think that makes the modern day UK and people culpable for the worlds ills.

People go on about Sweden accepting migrants etc....has anyone been there recently....It's still like spot the African, Migrant, it's all white.....nothing like the UK and much more racist.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Jews should of stopped at France when fleeing Hitler. Right?

 

[alfajobrob]

As an example, In parts of modern Sudan and Somalia (the parts that were formerly adornments of the Glorious Empire), English is the 2nd tongue, and the lingua franca for commerce. Add to that the fact of settled Sudanese and Somali communities in parts of the UK for over 100 years, and the reason you "risk your life further" is for your culture - to feel a little bit "at home" even when you're thousands of miles distant from where you were born.
The same points I've applied to Sudan and Somalia are applicable to dozens of other Anglophone states. We don't tend to get many asylum seekers from Cote d'Ivoire or Chad because they're Francophone, and prefer France over the UK even though their material conditions will be worse there.

Whatever...still economic migrants....shall we offer all Sudanese and Somalian's passports due to your ethical notions of speaking Anglais?

 

[alfajobrob]

Jews should of stopped at France when fleeing Hitler. Right?

Wanker...another emotional idiot.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Wanker...another emotional idiot.

You have a problem with emotion, don't you? Is this something you want to talk about?

 

[alfajobrob]

Jews should of stopped at France when fleeing Hitler. Right?

I can't be bothered with this tbh...I'm trying to be rational without all this hyperbole. OK yes I'm a fucking nazi and I hate all jews, disblesa, gypsies and blacks and I've been trying to convert you all for years.....you cunt!

 

[alfajobrob]

You have a problem with emotion, don't you? Is this something you want to talk about?

Just shit that people spin.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I can't be bothered with this tbh...I'm trying to be rational without all this hyperbole. OK yes I'm a fucking nazi and I hate all jews, disblesa, gypsies and blacks and I've been trying to convert you all for years.....you cunt!

I didn't call you a Nazi. If you're too thick to understand point I was making then there's no help for you.

 

[alfajobrob]

I didn't call you a Nazi. If you're too thick to understand point I was making then there's no help for you.

No - you didn't call me a Nazi. It's just been insinuated and I DO take offence

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

No - you didn't call me a Nazi. It's just been insinuated and I DO take offence

Nope, didn't insinuate it either. The point was that Jewish people fleeing the Nazis did not magically cease to be refugees once they had passed through France. Which is exactly the conclusion we would have to come to if we were to apply to them the same logic as you are applying to the migrants at Calais. Is that clear enough?

 

[bluescreen]

alfajobrob Are you suggesting that people stop being refugees and become economic migrants just because they have travelled away from the first 'safe' country they set foot in? That may be arguable if you're a government lawyer trying to evade responsibility but it's moral equivocation. You have seen explanations of why people don't get registered on first entry. Everyone tries to evade responsibility.

 

[alfajobrob]

Nope, didn't insinuate it either. The point was that Jewish people fleeing the Nazis did not magically cease to be refugees once they had passed through France. Which is exactly the conclusion we would have to come to if we were to apply to them the same logic as you are applying to the migrants at Calais. Is that clear enough?

Is there a massive diaspora fleeing persecution on a NAZI scale, basis, europe....NO....then you are talking shit!

 

[alfajobrob]

alfajobrob Are you suggesting that people stop being refugees and become economic migrants just because they have travelled away from the first 'safe' country they set foot in? That may be arguable if you're a government lawyer trying to evade responsibility but it's moral equivocation. You have seen explanations of why people don't get registered on first entry. Everyone tries to evade responsibility.

Yes - I am in a way. Thank you for understanding my first point. It's not a popular one but in no way racist.

 

[alfajobrob]

It's not unheard of for migrants to find their way from the care of the local police force directly into the care of some friendly people traffickers without passing go as it were. The officers involved presumably receive a modest referral fee for aiding the traffickers in their humanitarian endeavours.

Is this in Europe?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Is there a massive diaspora fleeing persecution on a NAZI scale....NO....then you are talking shit!

Ever heard of ISIS? Boko Haram? Ever been to Eritrea, or tried being a Christian in Iran? For an an individual fleeing from such situations, the pain is just as real as the pain of those that faced Nazi persecution. Think on a human scale. Put yourself in their shoes.

 

[bluescreen]

If they leave home as refugees, those people should still be treated as refugees. And as for the others, whatever the merits of their individual case, all people should still be treated more decently than they are at present.

 

[alfajobrob]

Ever heard of ISIS? Boko Haram? Ever been to Eritrea, or tried being a Christian in Iran? For an an individual fleeing from such situations, the pain is just as real as the pain of those that faced Nazi persecution. Think on a human scale. Put yourself in their shoes.

Then goto Italy, France, Spain, Luxembourg ie the first countries they have to pass. I'm sure they haven't got the Catholic church hangups they had a few centuries ago...why UK if not for preference?

I've actually been to Nigeria, Northern Ghana, Togo etc.

ISIS, Boko Haram etc. I'm sure a small percentage could chat to the anti terror officers. Why are we responsible for Eritrea unless we sent Blair there...if we did all refugees welcome. More so the Rwandans. Where does it stop or start?