Bye bye MEAT! How will the post-meat future look?

[littlebabyjesus]

Still shows that cows milk, pork and chicken are better for the environment than rice and buffalo is well down.

It doesn't show that really. It shows absolute emissions, so other large ruminants like buffalo are lower down simply because there are fewer of them. This study found that cattle and buffalo are pretty much the same regarding their conversion rate of food into methane, so you can view buffalo as equivalent to cows in this regard. Also applies to buffalo dairy farming, which is important in some parts of the world, such as India. (The amount of methane produced also varies a fair bit depending on the animals' diet and lifestyle, so not all cows are equal by any means.)

One thing that isn't explained in those graphics is how milk and meat have been separated out. Dairy cows are turned into beef when they are killed, as are their calves, as are dairy buffaloes and their calves.

 

[WouldBe]

It doesn't show that really. It shows absolute emissions, so other large ruminants like buffalo are lower down simply because there are fewer of them.

It doesn't appear to say that in the article.

One thing that isn't explained in those graphics is how milk and meat have been separated out. Dairy cows are turned into beef when they are killed, as are their calves, as are dairy buffaloes and their calves.

As always that doesn't make sense. If you raise beef cattle iirc they are slaughtered at 18 months. Meanwhile dairy cows live for several years producing milk before being slaughtered and all the time are emitting methane.

 

[bcuster]

Tofurkey on sale today in my supermarket. I guess it was meant to sell at full price ($15.99 for 2.5 pounds) for thanksgiving; marked down to $8.99 today. I can’t wait to try it

 

[Funky_monks]

There's quite a lot of work going on at the moment about the soil carbon sponge, and its looking like there are methanotrophs that utilise a lot of the methane emitted by ruminants on pasture.

All emission experiments on cattle have been done in sheds (why wouldn't you?), it may well be that at grass, they don't emit much at all.

See the talk by Walter Jehne earlier.

 

[CNT36]

From The Economist

View attachment 361157

Treating beef like coal would make a big dent in greenhouse-gas emiss…

archived 28 Jan 2023 14:06:05 UTC

archive.ph

I think that lets air travel off easy. It is important to take into account where the emissions take place not just the quantity.

 

[bcuster]

I think that lets air travel off easy. It is important to take into account where the emissions take place not just the quantity.

And this by elites flying private, high performance jets to luxury destinations

 

[bcuster]

I think of the great herds of bison in days of yore and wonder if the mere existence of large mammals is what is really the cause of global warming. I’ve become more concerned about how we treat these beasts and I feel we have broken our end of the covenant when we invited thee animals to become members of the human society

 

[Funky_monks]

I think of the great herds of bison in days of yore and wonder if the mere existence of large mammals is what is really the cause of global warming. I’ve become more concerned about how we treat these beasts and I feel we have broken our end of the covenant when we invited thee animals to become members of the human society

Well yes - it's reckoned that American settlers killed some 50-60 million of them in the 19th century to effectively end the way of life of native peoples on the great plains.

Secondly, we didn't invite livestock to be members of society. The relationship between man and livestock becomes very difficult to relate to these days because people don't have them, only pets. The way we treat them is becoming more anthropomorphic too - people referring to dogs as "fur babies" etc, besides being somewhat nauseating can lead to poor health outcomes for dogs who are fed the wrong thing, denied excercise, don't have boundaries set, leading to stress etc.

Livestock sit somewhere between "wild animal" and "pet". We have a responsibility to ensure they can display natural behaviours, and all the other "five freedoms" stuff, but they are not pets.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think of the great herds of bison in days of yore and wonder if the mere existence of large mammals is what is really the cause of global warming. I’ve become more concerned about how we treat these beasts and I feel we have broken our end of the covenant when we invited thee animals to become members of the human society

One of the bits of the Dublin Declaration that I think is most pertinent is the way that they stress the accumulated knowledge that has come as a result of thousands of years of farming. Much of this was thrown aside in the Green Revolution in favour of things like fossil-fuel-derived fertilisers and the promotion of monocultures. And we're now starting to understand how these were mistakes. We need to find new ways to feed 8 billion people.

The good news is that many of the better practices are virtuous circles. Crop rotation, intercropping, use of manure to build soils, use of waste to feed animals. All of these things increase yields, improve biodiversity, improve animal welfare and reduce dependence on fossil fuels. Supporting small producers also improves human welfare. Integrated farming systems for the good of all.

I get that some people object to raising animals to kill and eat full stop. But hopefully that shouldn't blind them to the fact that many of the worst practices talked about on this thread can and should be done very differently. Tackling that involves a degree of humility and a great deal of consultation, which is where the likes of Monbiot worry me, placing faith in yet more technological innovation to solve the problem, innovation that also ignores or rejects that accumulated knowledge.

 

[butcher]

The good thing about this thread is that between the antagonism you can often read some very interesting mature discussion.

 

[Cid]

Also worth remembering that a lot of this is heavily focused on beef... Our per capita beef consumption is already something like half that of the US and Brazil, 1/3 that of Argentina (source). And some pretty easy targets for reduction (kind of a waste in a Maccy d's, let's be honest).

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And worth remembering that nearly all of the beef eaten in the UK comes from either the UK or Ireland. If you want to look at the environmental impact of eating beef here in the UK, you need to look at farming practices here, not in the US, Brazil or Argentina.

 

[Cid]

And worth remembering that nearly all of the beef eaten in the UK comes from either the UK or Ireland. If you want to look at the environmental impact of eating beef here in the UK, you need to look at farming practices here, not in the US, Brazil or Argentina.

Yep, that 27% of emissions from land clearance in ed's post above is not something we can do much about.

 

[WouldBe]

I think of the great herds of bison in days of yore and wonder if the mere existence of large mammals is what is really the cause of global warming.

And yet if animals are causing global warming now then with all those bison then global warming should have been high in the past.

 

[butcher]

Revisiting enteric methane emissions from domestic ruminants and their δ13CCH4 source signature - Nature Communications

 

[CNT36]

And yet if animals are causing global warming now then with all those bison then global warming should have been high in the past.

The genocide of native Americans and the destruction of their agriculture has been given as a reason for the mini ice age.

 

[WouldBe]

The genocide of native Americans and the destruction of their agriculture has been given as a reason for the mini ice age.

Did they farm buffalo?

 

[bcuster]

Did they farm buffalo?

Bison are slaughtered just like cattle today

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The genocide of native Americans and the destruction of their agriculture has been given as a reason for the mini ice age.

It's been offered as a contributing factor to lowering co2 levels in the 16th century. The numbers involved are relatively small, though, compared to the recent rises. Also, the mini ice age is generally thought to have started before then.

Earth system impacts of the European arrival and Great Dying in the Americas after 1492

Human impacts prior to the Industrial Revolution are not well constrained. We investigate whether the decline in global atmospheric CO2 concentration …

www.sciencedirect.com

The mass slaughter of buffalo happened in the 19th century, just as the mini ice age was ending, so it correlates with a period of global warming if anything.

 

[WouldBe]

Bison are slaughtered just like cattle today

I know that. What I wanted to know was wether native Americans kept bison in enclosed fields as part of their agriculture?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I know that. What I wanted to know was wether native Americans kept bison in enclosed fields as part of their agriculture?

According to Britannica, it was the reverse situation. The mini ice age caused people to abandon farming and adopt a lifestyle based on hunting bison.

In North America between 1250 and 1500, the Native American cultures of the upper Mississippi valley and the western prairies began a general decline as drier conditions set in, accompanied by a transfer from agriculture to hunting.

Little Ice Age | geochronology

The bison were then intentionally wiped out in order to wipe out the people. But the disappearance of bison from North America didn't cause a dip in global temperatures. It may have had some effect, but if it did, that effect is drowned out in the data by other factors. Tbh this isn't so surprising. 60 million buffalo wiped out is a lot. But for context, there are about a billion cows on the planet right now.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And going back to the idea that around half of the fall in CO2 in the 16th century was caused by people abandoning farming in the Americas, if those numbers are accurate, it shows how change in land use is an important factor in climate change, precisely because you are releasing carbon from biomass that is locked in a sink. Like the burning of fossil fuels, you are adding new carbon to the cycle when you chop down forests. And that drives change. It's still the burning of fossil fuels that is the main villain here, though.

 

[Funky_monks]

Bit more about methane in case anyone is interested:

Context matters: Green zone hydroxyl radical formation and methane oxidation.

 

[butcher]

Bit more about methane in case anyone is interested:

Context matters: Green zone hydroxyl radical formation and methane oxidation.

Was it this bit that grabbed you:

"Sadly, like I noted already, emissions of cattle have largely been taken out of context to rationalize feedlots.. More recently and ironically, those rationalizations are also now being used to push ultra-processed “plant-based” foods and cell-Ag where large food corporations are trying to further consolidate and control the food supply through patent protected intellectual property. Many over zealous vegans are either the unwittingly pawns or willing prostitutes (e.g. George Monbiot) of these large food corporations."

 

[Funky_monks]

Was it this bit that grabbed you:

"Sadly, like I noted already, emissions of cattle have largely been taken out of context to rationalize feedlots.. More recently and ironically, those rationalizations are also now being used to push ultra-processed “plant-based” foods and cell-Ag where large food corporations are trying to further consolidate and control the food supply through patent protected intellectual property. Many over zealous vegans are either the unwittingly pawns or willing prostitutes (e.g. George Monbiot) of these large food corporations."

Yes, I noticed that

 

[friedaweed]

Bit more about methane in case anyone is interested:

Context matters: Green zone hydroxyl radical formation and methane oxidation.

Really interesting that. Tadge too much science lingo for my repertoire but I get the gist of it. The stuff on terpenes is interesting.

I have wondered how the whole household and garden waste industry impacts on methane. I know there's a fair bit of study on landfil sites but has there been much research into the green garden waste industry, that you're familiar with? The industry that councils have gone big on, and are now charging us for? They must have a significant impact on emissions given the accelerated method in which they're processed soil improver no? What, in your view, is the difference between using that stuff over manure?

Apols if this is going over old ground.

 

[Funky_monks]

Really interesting that. Tadge too much science lingo for my repertoire but I get the gist of it. The stuff on terpenes is interesting.

I have wondered how the whole household and garden waste industry impacts on methane. I know there's a fair bit of study on landfil sites but has there been much research into the green garden waste industry, that you're familiar with? The industry that councils have gone big on, and are now charging us for? They must have a significant impact on emissions given the accelerated method in which they're processed soil improver no? What, in your view, is the difference between using that stuff over manure?

Apols if this is going over old ground.

I have no idea, but imagine covered landfill seeps would be bad for it.

 

[WouldBe]

Really interesting that. Tadge too much science lingo for my repertoire but I get the gist of it. The stuff on terpenes is interesting.

I have wondered how the whole household and garden waste industry impacts on methane. I know there's a fair bit of study on landfil sites but has there been much research into the green garden waste industry, that you're familiar with? The industry that councils have gone big on, and are now charging us for? They must have a significant impact on emissions given the accelerated method in which they're processed soil improver no? What, in your view, is the difference between using that stuff over manure?

Apols if this is going over old ground.

Some of them capture the methane and burn it to raise the temp of the compost to speed it up.

 

[bcuster]

 

[butcher]

Using reddit as a source of legitimate information.....