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Bye bye MEAT! How will the post-meat future look?

How reluctant are you to give up your meat habit?


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It wasn't that quick - we only started adapting the haber process to make synthetic fert in any volume post ww2 - the horse was still more common than the tractor in 1945. The transition took place 1945 to the 60s (possibly later) in the UK.

The transition has to be slow because:
  • We are now attempting to feed millions more people than we were in 1945
  • Any "wobbles" will lead to huge rises in the cost of food, post harvest 2023 is going to be interesting because the price of synthetic fert was so high that farmers used less, which will mean significantly reduced yields.
  • Importing masses of our food just passes our issues onto the developing world - we can't just accept yield loss for environmental reasons and just import more food from there, that has really poor outcomes for people and environment in those places.
  • Agriculture has long lead in times
  • Asset Fixity theory
  • We need to develop viable ways of doing things like controlling crop pests without chemicals. Plenty of advances coming along, but tech isn't there yet.
Er bollocks. You're arguing for autarky in food production which has never been realistic. There's been a great quick change after ww2 - surely any change will take max the same amount of time. The top 10 countries Britain imports from are the USA and countries in Western Europe. I don't know why, given this, you think a great change in the UK is going to change that.
 
Er bollocks. You're arguing for autarky in food production which has never been realistic. There's been a great quick change after ww2 - surely any change will take max the same amount of time. The top 10 countries Britain imports from are the USA and countries in Western Europe. I don't know why, given this, you think a great change in the UK is going to change that.
Of course it won't - look at the global population now compared to 1945. Norman Borlaug, who is credited as being the leader of the green revolution is credited with saving over a billion people from starvation, for which he received a Nobel Prize. Those developments prop up our population and provide them with cheap food. In order to move away from them, we need to work out how to maintain the massive yields necessary to ensure people don't starve (whilst simultaneously taking land out of production for nature).
 
And here we go again. Don't like the science because it undermines your amateur opinions? Then dismiss it out of hand!
Why are you like this?

Serious question. It makes engagement impossible.

You yourself have linked to multiple articles all based on P&N (2018), often in the same post. It gives an illusion of consensus, which you have fallen for. Don't you see that?
 
One of the benefits of being an academic who has, in the past actually done the job is that you can't help but try and apply the science.

If everyone goes vegan (assuming cropping and not some synthetic mycogloop manufactured by massive corps) we need to fertilise those crops somehow. It's a point I've made over and over but we do that one of two ways - synthetic fert made from fossil fuels or manure. Fossil fuels are finite, and the continuing use of them is amoral. Manure is not, it also builds soils, wheras synthetic fert does not and I just posted a research article which shows that manure allows lots more absorbtion of NO2 than synthetic fert.
Then why not rework farms to produce manure as the primary produce? Is eating meat necessary to produce manure? Surely this could be a way to cut down on meat (not that you have to agree with this as an aim but for the sake of argument) without being a starvation enthusiast.
 
Why are you like this?

Serious question. It makes engagement impossible.

You yourself have linked to multiple articles all based on P&N (2018), often in the same post. It gives an illusion of consensus, which you have fallen for. Don't you see that?
Do you have a valid, peer reviewed criticism of that report past you not liking its conclusions?
Please detail its apparent fatal findings, backed up by credible sources.
 
What relevant, peer reviewed papers has he published recently?
In those articles you have posted, how do they deal with the soils question? Do you know? If they don't deal with it, do you accept that FM knows what he is talking about when he says that this is a massive challenge for a post-fossil-fuel future, and therefore this is a significant omission?
 
Do you have a valid, peer reviewed criticism of that report past you not liking its conclusions?
Please detail its apparent fatal findings, backed up by credible sources.
tbh a thread dedicated to discussion of Poore and Nemecek (2018) would be a good idea.

That wasn't the point I was making here, though. The point I was making here is that stink-bombing a thread with a series of links to articles you haven't read that all rely on the same piece of research for their numbers doesn't prove what you think it proves.
 
Also, I'm very aware of being called a crank and a shill on here, and to that end I've posted up loads of other stuff by loads of other scientists including lots of peer reviewed research and a collection of signatures by schools on this subject.
 
I think, if I recall correctly, its the most cited study ever, and its only been around four and a bit years.
Not even close. It has about 3,000 citations, according to Google Scholar. By comparison, Mind In Society by Vygotsky has about 150,000. If you want papers rather than books then just by quickly searching for ones by Tajfel, Billig or Reicher, for example, I found plenty with 8,000+. And that’s just me looking up a few names that I know are big in social psychology. I’m sure there are papers to do with methods in biomedicine that must have tens of thousands of citations.
 
Maybe it's citations since publication.
And yes, I was talking papers not books
Nope. For example, by looking up Reicher, I found this:


COVID-19 social behaviour. Published in 2020, over 4,000 citations.
 
Re: Poore and Nemecek: Just had a quick Google and I couldn't even get any info because of the sheer volume of Web sources using it that came up.
I have a feeling that my thoughts came from a session that senior leadership ran on impact, in which I probably wasn't paying as much attention as they'd have liked me to...
 
You're a fucking hypocrite because you have been laying it thick about me for fucking pages and pages and pages now, including calling me a bigot, which is bang out of order. Not only are you laughably wide of the mark most of the time, you're relentlessly abusive.

You shouldn't attempt to moderate threads where you're throwing around insults yourself. Just makes you look like a fucking hypocrite.
 
Food security is also a distribution problem as much as a production one, recall some figure from a permaculture article (that I can't now find) that you could feed the best part of a billion people if you could reduce food waste by just a quarter.
 
You're a fucking hypocrite because you have been laying it thick about me for fucking pages and pages and pages now, including calling me a bigot, which is bang out of order. Not only are you laughably wide of the mark most of the time, you're relentlessly abusive.

You shouldn't attempt to moderate threads where you're throwing around insults yourself. Just makes you look like a fucking hypocrite.

Look at the abuse I've received on this thread - I'm relatively thick skinned and I think Urban has probably calmed down a bit since the early 2000s in that regard, but still. It does seem fine for one side to dish out insults not only about me personally but also about the many other people who broadly agree with me in a scientific context.

Like Jeff cherry picking the list of signatories of the Dublin Declaration in order to make it seem like its full of cranks (god knows what proportion 725 people is of scientists within this field but it seems reasonably significant).
I could have gone down the same list and plucked out:
Edinburgh
Dublin Trinity
Cambridge
Newcastle
Reading

Etc
 
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