Bye bye MEAT! How will the post-meat future look?

[Funky_monks]

Food security is also a distribution problem as much as a production one, recall some figure from a permaculture article (that I can't now find) that you could feed the best part of a billion people if you could reduce food waste by just a quarter.

I think the figure is that a third of food is wasted. That's insane.
Is why I was quite interested to see the work that's going in into growing black soldier fly maggots on food waste for chicken feed. At least if people waste food, we could turn it into something useful.

For what its worth, I think a lot of food waste comes from the catering sector.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Look at the abuse I've received on this thread - I'm relatively thick skinned and I think Urban has probably calmed down a bit since the early 2000s in that regard, but still. It does seem fine for one side to dish out insults not only about me personally but also about the many other people who broadly agree with me in a scientific context.

Like Jeff cherry picking the list of signatories of the Dublin Declaration in order to make it seem like its full of cranks (god knows what proportion 725 people is of scientists within this field but it seems reasonably significant).
I could have gone down the same list and plucked out:
Edinburgh
Dublin Trinity
Cambridge
Newcastle
Reading

Etc

I just looked up a random selection of signatories. The vast majority, not surprisingly, are agriculture or food scientists. People actively involved in work to improve farming and nutrition. Jeff was talking shit.

There's a general trend in this in which farmers and those who work with farmers are seen as the enemy. When that is paired up with cheering on the efforts of huge multinationals that shit on farmers from a great height, we really pass through the looking glass.

 

[JimW]

I think the figure is that a third of food is wasted. That's insane.
Is why I was quite interested to see the work that's going in into growing black soldier fly maggots on food waste for chicken feed. At least if people waste food, we could turn it into something useful.

For what its worth, I think a lot of food waste comes from the catering sector.

Food waste is collected separately even in our remote-ish village here, some used to go for swill but I know that's not allowed any more (nor keeping pigs round here full stop) but haven't checked out what they are doing with it. We composted our own at the last place but only got a tiny veg patch here so do dump a bit. Can well believe catering is a major culprit.

 

[Funky_monks]

Food waste is collected separately even in our remote-ish village here, some used to go for swill but I know that's not allowed any more (nor keeping pigs round here full stop) but haven't checked out what they are doing with it. We composted our own at the last place but only got a tiny veg patch here so do dump a bit. Can well believe catering is a major culprit.

Yes - I made a point earlier in the thread about pigs and poultry having been domesticated primarily because they take our food waste and turn it into protein.

This is where massive, centralised Agriculture has gone wrong in that regard, they are centralised and crops grown specifically for them (although some waste is used, like molasses and soymeal) as opposed to being decentralised and raised at community level to fulfil their original purpose.

 

[kabbes]

That's not exactly what I'd call 'personal abuse' myself given the kind of language that was previously bring used, but if you're that hyper sensitive, my apologies

I’ll bear in mind for the future that you will find nothing abusive at all if I tell you that “your levels of head-in-the-sand denial are bordering on Olympic.”

Why don’t we start now? On this issue, your levels of head-in-the-sand denial are bordering on Olympic.

 

[Funky_monks]

There's a general trend in this in which farmers and those who work with farmers are seen as the enemy. When that is paired up with cheering on the efforts of huge multinationals that shit on farmers from a great height, we really pass through the looking glass.

Well, it depends. The massive meat processors who shit on farmers from a great height are the enemy. Except, of course when they are also developing meat substitutes.....

Quite some doublethink.

 

[JimW]

Yes - I made a point earlier in the thread about pigs and poultry having been domesticated primarily because they take our food waste and turn it into protein.

This is where massive, centralised Agriculture has gone wrong in that regard, they are centralised and crops grown specifically for them (although some waste is used, like molasses and soymeal) as opposed to being decentralised and raised at community level to fulfil their original purpose.

Think I mentioned that in the mountain villages I first worked in the sty was also the toilet.

 

[editor]

fucking hypocrite ...fucking...relentlessly abusive... fucking hypocrite.

I'm putting you on ignore for a while because you're losing the plot. Bye!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'm putting you on ignore for a while because you're losing the plot. Bye!

You abuse me and I get put on ignore?

 

[Pickman's model]

You abuse me and I get put on ignore?

Welcome to urban

 

[butcher]

"Might be good if the levels of general personal abuse could notch down a bit now. Thanks."

I saw this quote recently but can't remember the author.......................

 

[butcher]

I'm also a bigot. And I have an agenda. Am in denial. Am a know-nothing amateur. etc etc.

Editor is a fucking hypocrite.

That was established when he admitted he was not a vegan

 

[editor]

That was established when he admitted he was not a vegan

Oh wait: so you can't be critical of the meat industry if you're not a vegan?

Great stuff.

 

[bcuster]

Oh wait: so you can't be critical of the meat industry if you're not a vegan?

True words...

 

[Funky_monks]

You abuse me and I get put on ignore?

We must manufacture an echo chamber somehow.

 

[Funky_monks]

I must say, I do find this situation very weird.
I'm a baddie, my boss is interested in dairy so he's a baddie, off to collect our cheques from "big meat" for our shady science. The crop scientists are naturally, goodies, apart from that one who likes grazing arable rotations, he's a bit suspect...

Or maybe we're all baddies as per Monbiot and only the mathematicians and industrial chemists can save us...

 

[CNT36]

Farmers’ union called UK environment targets ‘irrational’ and ‘unachievable’

NFU raised questions over water pollution, tree planting and rewilding targets, according to documents

www.theguardian.com

The newly published consultation documents show that the NFU’s response was highly critical of the initial proposals.

The lobby group, which represents powerful voices in the agriculture sector, said proposals to reduce nutrient pollution from animal waste and fertiliser were “irrational”.

It told the government: “Broadly, we consider the level of ambition across the nutrient targets to be unachievable, inconsistent and irrational. The NFU and its members are committed to building on past successes and further reducing nutrient losses to the environment from agriculture. However, this effort must be balanced with the need to produce food, fibre and energy on farm, thereby protecting the rural economy and maintaining food security.”

The union also said it did not agree with targets to reverse species extinction, and in particular spoke out against reintroducing lost species. It said: “The NFU has long advocated that we should support species that are already present before we seek to introduce new species. So instead, we believe that we should aim to prevent the loss of species, as such a bespoke target approach to rare and threatened species could be beneficial in driving action to reduce biodiversity loss.”

It argued that the concept of rewilding was damaging to the countryside, warning against “adopting an approach that risks undermining the social fabric of rural communities”. It said: “Rewilding, for example, ignores the fact that our iconic farmed landscapes are valued by the many who make 4bn visits to the British countryside each year.”

It also said the tree planting target of 17.5% coverage was too ambitious. “An increase in tree canopy and woodland cover from 14.5% to 17.5% equates to 415,000 hectares of tree cover by 2050, approximately 15,000 hectares of trees a year. This is extremely ambitious, if not unachievable,” it said.

Nature groups said the union was “deluded and dangerous” and that it was “stunting progress towards a greener future” after its lobbying against nature restoration policies was revealed.

 

[JTG]

Food waste is collected separately even in our remote-ish village here, some used to go for swill but I know that's not allowed any more (nor keeping pigs round here full stop) but haven't checked out what they are doing with it. We composted our own at the last place but only got a tiny veg patch here so do dump a bit. Can well believe catering is a major culprit.

Ours goes to the anaerobic digestion plant at Avonmouth and gets turned into fertiliser, biogas and electricity. Think yours goes to a similar facility up Bishops Cleeve way

 

[JimW]

Ours goes to the anaerobic digestion plant at Avonmouth and gets turned into fertiliser, biogas and electricity. Think yours goes to a similar facility up Bishops Cleeve way

Was talking here in China rather than Stroud but interesting to hear.

 

[Funky_monks]

Fossil fuel methane emissions underestimated by about 70% (feb 2022):

Fossil Fuel Industry Emitting 70% More Methane Than Official Numbers Show

 

[Funky_monks]

Farmers’ union called UK environment targets ‘irrational’ and ‘unachievable’

NFU raised questions over water pollution, tree planting and rewilding targets, according to documents

www.theguardian.com

I'm reading the new ELMS stuff at the moment.

So far looks like the bulk of the subs will benefit large arable were they to take them up.
What I'm hearing from farmers is that grassland (especially hill) farmers pretty miffed - hill farming used to receive lots of funding.
"Smaller" Arable farmers thinking that cropping isn't worthwhile anymore, increased price of wheat last year hasn't matched the increase in costs of inputs so quite a few just thinking of "farming subsidy" and not bothering with that pesky business of producing food.
Larger ones still interested in cropping probably the ones that fall in line with the NFU's opinion there.

NFU haven't been very popular with famers for a long time (except massive ones), considered to be very much acting in the interests of the big supermarkets and Red Tractor.

 

[JTG]

Was talking here in China rather than Stroud but interesting to hear.

lol, I did wonder whether you'd moved again! I've been an infrequent visitor to These Parts

 

[editor]

Farmers’ union called UK environment targets ‘irrational’ and ‘unachievable’

NFU raised questions over water pollution, tree planting and rewilding targets, according to documents

www.theguardian.com

Self interested, short sighted cunts.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Fossil fuel methane emissions underestimated by about 70% (feb 2022):

Fossil Fuel Industry Emitting 70% More Methane Than Official Numbers Show

And just to join up the thinking there, if this is the case (and we should think it likely that it is the case as these new numbers are the result of improved measuring methods, plus it was widely suspected that the real numbers were a lot higher), then that means that global methane emissions from fossil fuels are not the widely quoted 33%, but instead are more like 50%. The knock-on from that is that the proportions from other sources, including animal farming, are lower than the widely quoted figures.

 

[nogojones]

Gotta say, I'm into the Beyond Burgers, McPlant Burgers, Vegan Katsu Curries and Veggie Richmond Sausages. If they could keep the plant based meat alternatives as convincing as those things, then I'm all for it.

I tried a veggie Richmond sausage recently for the first time and can confirm they're just as awful as a Richmonds pork sausage.

 

[editor]

From The Economist

Treating beef like coal would make a big dent in greenhouse-gas emissions​

Another recent paper, by Xiaoming Xu of the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and eight co-authors, allocates this impact among 171 crops and 16 animal products. It finds that animal-based foods account for 57% of agricultural ghgs, versus 29% for food from plants. Beef and cow’s milk alone made up 34%. Combined with the earlier study’s results, this implies that cattle produce 12% of ghg emissions

Relative to other food sources, beef is uniquely carbon-intensive. Because cattle emit methane and need large pastures that are often created via deforestation, they produce seven times as many ghgs per calorie of meat as pigs do, and around 40% more than farmed prawns do. This makes beef a bigger outlier among foods than coal is among sources of electricity: burning coal generates just 14% more ghgs than burning oil, another common fuel.

These figures may understate the environmental benefits of shrinking the cattle population. Methane dissipates relatively fast, meaning that past bovine emissions soon stop warming the planet if those animals are not replaced. Such a change could also raise output of plant-based foods, by making land now used to grow animal feed available for other crops. It takes 33 plant calories to produce one calorie of beef.

Treating beef like coal would make a big dent in greenhouse-gas emiss…

archived 28 Jan 2023 14:06:05 UTC

archive.ph

 

[WouldBe]

From The Economist

View attachment 361157

Treating beef like coal would make a big dent in greenhouse-gas emiss…

archived 28 Jan 2023 14:06:05 UTC

archive.ph

The second worse food there is rice.

 

[editor]

The second worse food there is rice.

It's not even half as bad as beef, and then it's followed by cow's milk, chicken and pork which are all awful for emissions. But I don't expect you to comment on that, of course,

 

[WouldBe]

It's not even half as bad as beef, and then it's followed by cow's milk, chicken and pork which are all awful for emissions. But I don't expect you to comment on that, of course,

Still shows that cows milk, pork and chicken are better for the environment than rice and buffalo is well down.

Perhaps the thread should be "the end of beef" not just meat.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

"the end of beef"

That will never happen on urban