Bye bye MEAT! How will the post-meat future look?

[gentlegreen]

A bit of an aside...
If "avocados and almonds though" was wearing a bit thin, the anti-vegans apparently recently switched to "crop deaths though" ...

But it took a dreary millennial self-appointed Oxbridge-educated "philosopher" and "failed vegan" with a recent unlikely allegiance with Mikhaila Peterson to extend "crop deaths" to "vegans shouldn't body-build"...

I personally happen to see "bodybuilding" per se as a bit odd, but the "logical" extension of additional protein causing unnecessary additional "crop deaths" is that those of us who aim to minimise animal harm should aim to function at near-BMR - perhaps waste away altogether like a stereotypical "vegan" - as any excess weight or physical activity requiring additional calories becomes "unethical" ...

Am I the only one feeling that Cosmic Septic looks and sounds like the "thinking" fanboi's Sargon of Akaad or Paul Joseph Smith ?

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=cosmic+skeptic+vegan&sp=CAI%253D

 

[editor]

Look at the state of this poultry 'farm' holding 40,000 chickens.



And here's the problems that neighbours say that this vile, cruel, obscene factory farm is creating:

...residents living next to a Cranswick farm were suffering headaches, nosebleeds and breathing problems because of the stench from the unit in Stow Bedon, Norfolk.

The local council claims it has checked for fly problems in Westhall – a tiny village with around 400 residents, a Grade I listed Norman church and a pub - and didn't identify any issues with the chicken farm. But residents insist it is responsible for the annual swarm of flies.

Grandfather Alasdair Cameron, 84, whose 18th century barn home overlooks the site, said: 'We've had to put up with problems of smell and noise. But the worst thing is the millions of flies that have infested the area in the two summers since it began operating. The swarms are just horrendous.

'It starts getting bad in May and carries right on through September. You can't ask anyone over for dinner because it is too much.
'They swarm at first light and I am forced to sleep under a mosquito net but the constant buzzing still keeps me awake.

https://archive.ph/GQofE#selection-1859.32-1875.119

 

[butcher]

That's why you shop at a Butcher and buy a decent bird like these: Our Farming - Fosse Meadows

 

[editor]

That's why you shop at a Butcher and buy a decent bird like these: Our Farming - Fosse Meadows

And you think those kind of places are accessible and affordable to the majority of chicken consumers in the UK?

Iceland supermarket chicken breast 1.1kg for £10
Posh place you linked to: 1kg for £17.20

Iceland whole chicken 1.7kg-2.2kg: £6.50
Posh place you linked to, 1.9kg-2.1kg: £18.80

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Good article in the Atlantic on the myth of "humane" dairy. Findings from a report into the 'Alexandre Family Farm', an 'organic' 'Certified Humane', 'regenerative' etc. dairy farm in the US:

The details in the report are horrifying: a cow with mastitis having her teat cut off with a knife. A cow sent to auction with a spinal-cord injury that had left her incontinent and partly paralyzed. A live, alert cow being dragged by a skid steer. A cow that could not walk being left in a field for two weeks before being euthanized. Cows sprayed with a caustic combination of mineral oil and diesel fuel to tamp down on a fly infestation (which, a whistleblower says in the report, they were told to lie about to an inspector).

Former employees said that sick cows were regularly denied antibiotics for mastitis and hoof infections, at least in part to maintain their milk as organic—a charge corroborated by an Alexandre farm worker not involved in the report.

Whistleblowers also said cows with infections had their eyes packed with salt and had denim patches glued to their skulls.

Dairy cows generally have their horn buds destroyed with a caustic paste or a hot iron in the first weeks of life. But the report describes an incident in which Alexandre let hundreds of calves grow horns and then dehorned them as adults with a sawzall, a handheld construction tool. Horns are innervated, like fingers, not inert, like fingernails; the cows were not given anesthetic.

The Truth About Organic Milk

Cows are suffering on even the most “humane” dairy farms.

www.theatlantic.com

The entire industry is rotten, violent, evil, absurd, wasteful and needs to be burnt to the ground as soon as possible.

 

[editor]

Worrying report explains how "industrial meat and dairy trap us in an infectious disease cycle."

The current, highly virulent strain of avian flu had already been ripping through chicken and turkey farms over the past two years. Since it jumped to US dairy cows for the first time last month, it’s infected more than 20 dairy herds across eight states, raising alarms among public health authorities about possible spread to humans and potential impacts on the food supply.

One Texas dairy worker contracted a mild case of bird flu from one of the impacted farms — the second such case ever recorded in the US (though one of hundreds worldwide over the past two decades, most of them fatal).

Naming infectious diseases is always political.

In this case, the cattle industry appears desperate to distance itself from the bird flu news cycle and avoid the perception that it’s contributing to human disease risk. But animal agriculture is one of the top drivers of zoonotic diseases — and growing global demand for meat, dairy, and eggs may be putting us at ever-greater risk of new outbreak

In recent years, as the dairy industry has increasingly consolidated into large factory farms, long-distance transportation of cows has become very common, Reynolds explained. Young female calves are often trucked from northern states to warmer climates in the south, then shipped back north when they’re old enough to become pregnant and produce milk. “There’s kind of a constant movement that really didn’t exist much 20 years ago,” Reynolds said.

Long-distance shipment can inflict extreme suffering on farmed animals, who are treated more like cargo than sentient beings. It’s also a hallmark of intensive animal agriculture systems described in the infectious disease trap model, allowing diseases to jump to new regions.

At least 18 states have restricted cow imports from states where dairy cows have tested positive for bird flu. The dairy industry recognizes the risks, Reynolds said, and is making efforts to improve biosecurity on these cross-country journeys. Meanwhile, regulators are scrambling to track the disease and stem its spread — but experts have argued those efforts don’t go nearly far enough, failing to require widespread testing.

The dairy industry really, really doesn’t want you to say "bird flu in cows"

How industrial meat and dairy trap us in an infectious disease cycle.

www.vox.com

 

[butcher]

And you think those kind of places are accessible and affordable to the majority of chicken consumers in the UK?

Iceland supermarket chicken breast 1.1kg for £10
Posh place you linked to: 1kg for £17.20

Iceland whole chicken 1.7kg-2.2kg: £6.50
Posh place you linked to, 1.9kg-2.1kg: £18.80

So you want people to eat less meat but are then defending the consumer rights of battery chicken buyers..................or is it that you think poor people aren't allowed to budget and buy something decent less often. Maybe they could eat, oh I don't know lentil dahl on another night to off set the more expensive meal.....

BTW I know you don't like reading the details on links, but theirs are 9.40/kg. Compare that to the cost of beef or lamb in supermarkets and you will see it is affordable especially as a decent chicken lasts many meals, chicken soup is fantastic.

However, lets not facts get in the way.

 

[editor]

So you want people to eat less meat but are then defending the consumer rights of battery chicken buyers..................or is it that you think poor people aren't allowed to budget and buy something decent less often. Maybe they could eat, oh I don't know lentil dahl on another night to off set the more expensive meal.....

What a bizarre take on my comment. Factory farms won't be going away just because a tiny, microscopic percentage of better off people can afford the place you mentioned.
In fact, factory farms are on the rise, so maybe the focus should be on trying to get people to eat far, far less chicken?

 

[butcher]

What a bizarre take on my comment. Factory farms won't be going away just because a tiny, microscopic percentage of better off people can afford the place you mentioned.
In fact, factory farms are on the rise, so maybe the focus should be on trying to get people to eat far, far less chicken?

So what is your problem with a price structure which reflects better welfare and achieves that end?

My comment was directed at your shock horror that decent chickens cost money to produce and buy and that it is unfair on the majority who want to buy cheap battery chickens.

Is it because you think only "posh" people can afford to buy them? That is a bit insulting to those who choose to buy less but better welfare, not all of whom fit into your idea of "posh".......... but what do I know about the retail trade I am in.

 

[bcuster]

I'm not unsure that paying more and buying (far) less meat is a bad idea at all.

I am sensing, after 160 pages, a potential compromise here...

 

[editor]

So what is your problem with a price structure which reflects better welfare and achieves that end?

My comment was directed at your shock horror that decent chickens cost money to produce and buy and that it is unfair on the majority who want to buy cheap battery chickens.

Is it because you think only "posh" people can afford to buy them? That is a bit insulting to those who choose to buy less but better welfare, not all of whom fit into your idea of "posh".......... but what do I know about the retail trade I am in.

I want the end of factory farms. Your solution is no solution at all.

 

[WouldBe]

I want the end of factory farms. Your solution is no solution at all.

But those chickens aren't kept in factory farms.

 

[kabbes]

I'm not unsure that paying more and buying (far) less meat is a bad idea at all.

I am sensing, after 160 pages, a potential compromise here...

It’s literally the second post on this thread.

 

[bcuster]

It’s literally the second post on this thread.

Not seeing that. butcher laid it out precisely:

If you insist in eating meaty flesh, than it will cost much more because the animals that will be killed to satisfy your needs will be treated better

 

[kabbes]

Not seeing that. butcher laid it out precisely:

If you insist in eating meaty flesh, than it will cost much more because the animals that will be killed to satisfy your needs will be treated better

Yes, that’s something that’s been brought up again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again.

 

[bcuster]

I've been following this discussion closely. I hadn't seen a post that proposes a means to both reduce the consumption of meat and pay for better treatment of the animals

 

[kabbes]

I've been following this discussion closely. I hadn't seen a post that proposes a means to both reduce the consumption of meat and pay for better treatment of the animals

You hadn’t even joined urban yet when this was brought up for the first of its 38284 times

 

[bcuster]

You hadn’t even joined urban yet when this was brought up for the first of its 38284 times

That is true.
Can we all be friends now?

 

[Funky_monks]

Is this the place to bring up (again) that literally nobody on this thread has defended intensive broiler production and yet it seems to be wheeled out as some sort of "gotcha" every few pages?

 

[bcuster]

Now that we all agree that meat should be expensive, scarce and humanely produced, what can be done to address Jeff Robinson ‘s rightful concerns about the dairy industry?

 

[Saul Goodman]

Now that we all agree that meat should be expensive, scarce

I don't. I believe meat should be cheap and readily available, or wages should be higher, but that isn't going to happen.
It sounds to me like you only want rich people to eat meat.

 

[butcher]

Is this the place to bring up (again) that literally nobody on this thread has defended intensive broiler production and yet it seems to be wheeled out as some sort of "gotcha" every few pages?

Yeah but avocados and almonds

 

[bcuster]

I don't. I believe meat should be cheap and readily available, or wages should be higher, but that isn't going to happen.
It sounds to me like you only want rich people to eat meat.

I want no one to eat meat. There is no need to eat meat. But unlike some here, I'm willing to compromise.

Your response does not address improving the conditions that the animals live in and meet their doom

 

[Saul Goodman]

I want no one to eat meat. There is no need to eat meat. But unlike some here, I'm willing to compromise.

There's no need to do lots of the things that people do every day, but they still do them. For example, you don't need to impose your lifestyle choices on others, yet here you are. That's one of the perks of living in a relatively free society. We're allowed to do things that others might not agree with. It'd be a bit shit if we were only allowed to do things based on necessity, wouldn't it.

Your response does not address improving the conditions that the animals live in and meet their doom

It wasn't meant to. It was addressing your assertion that everyone agrees that meat should be expensive and scarce, which is nonsense, because most people don't agree.

 

[bcuster]

More people prefer cow's milk over plant-based milks, new Yahoo/YouGov poll finds. Here's what nutritionists think about that.

Whole milk and 2% cow’s milk emerged as the top choices of milk, beating out plant-based milk.

www.yahoo.com

Failure to properly address ethical issues

 

[editor]

More people prefer cow's milk over plant-based milks, new Yahoo/YouGov poll finds. Here's what nutritionists think about that.

Whole milk and 2% cow’s milk emerged as the top choices of milk, beating out plant-based milk.

www.yahoo.com

Failure to properly address ethical issues

That title is a strange spin on what's happening, when the real story is the absolutely massive shift to non-dairy milk.

15 years ago just about everyone was drinking cow's milk, Now it's barely more than half of the population (52% of respondents say they still drink some type of milk at least occasionally).

And why Media Dietitian, Spokeswoman, Brand Consultant, Dieting Specialist & Coach Nicole Ibarra's opinion is seen as so important in that article truly baffles me.

Meanwhile:

Most plant-based meat and dairy alternatives have lower saturated fat and higher fibre, study finds

Plant-based alternatives also have substantially lower environmental impacts, including lower greenhouse gas emissions, use of water resources and land use, according to a review of evidence.

news.sky.com

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Eradicate animal farming now!

Millions of supermarket chickens show skin burns from living in their own waste, a BBC investigation has found.
"Hock burn" is caused by ammonia from excrement. A sign of poorer welfare on farms, it can be seen on a third of birds in some supermarkets, data shows.
The BBC asked the 10 biggest UK chains about its presence on their shelves. Co-op and Aldi reported the highest rates but five refused to release data.

Millions of store chickens suffer burns from excrement

A BBC investigation finds about one third of chickens sold in some UK supermarkets have "hock burn".

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[editor]

Look at the damage these fuckers are doing to nature:

The majority of UK dairy farms are breaking pollution rules, with vast amounts of cow manure being spilled into rivers.

When animal waste enters the river, it causes a buildup of the nutrients found in the effluent, such as nitrates and phosphates. These cause algal blooms, which deplete the waterway of oxygen and block sunlight, choking fish and other aquatic life.


Sixty nine per cent of the 2,475 English dairy farms inspected by the Environment Agency between 2020 and 2021 were in breach of environmental regulations, according to new data released under freedom of information laws.

The problem is prevalent across the UK; in Wales 80% of the 83 dairy farms inspected by Natural Resources Wales between 2020 and 2022 were non-compliant with anti-pollution regulations. In Northern Ireland 50% of the 339 dairy farms inspected by the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs between 2020 and 2022 were not compliant, and in Scotland 60% of the 114 dairy farms initially inspected by the Scottish Environmental Protection Agency between 2020 and 2023 were in breach of regulations.

“With a herd of 50 cows calculated to be capable of emitting the equivalent amount of pollution as a human settlement of 10,000 people, it is hardly surprising that the dairy industry is placing an unsustainable pollution burden on many river catchments across the country. Meanwhile, yet another chapter in the British river pollution scandal unfolds, our impotent regulators continue to watch on in a solely advisory capacity, and the giant supermarket groups happily count their profits at the cost of the continuous degradation of the environment.”

Most UK dairy farms ignoring pollution rules as manure spews into rivers

Exclusive: 80% of Welsh dairy farms inspected, 69% of English ones, 60% in Scotland and 50% in Northern Ireland breaching regulations

www.theguardian.com

 

[Jeff Robinson]

I can't think of anything better than every last dairy farm being closed down.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Synthetic fertilisers are killing the planet.

Harmful Effects of Synthetic Fertilizers on the Environment | Northern Wild Seeds | Nature With Us

Order native tree, plant, and wildflower seeds + seedlings. Located in northern BC, we sell online to wild plant enthusiasts and restoration companies.

naturewithus.com

Fertilizer: a new battleground in the fight to solve the climate crisis | One Earth

In a new report, The Center for International Environmental Law exposes how the fossil fuel industry seeks to increase the production of fossil-based agrochemicals.

www.oneearth.org

New research shows 50 year binge on chemical fertilisers must end to address the climate crisis

The rising costs of synthetic nitrogen (N) fertilisers, triggered by a spike in natural gas prices, has governments panicking about a catastrophic global food crisis. At the same time, new research shows that synthetic N fertilisers are a major driver of the climate crisis, responsible for 1 out...

www.iatp.org