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Bye bye MEAT! How will the post-meat future look?

How reluctant are you to give up your meat habit?

  • I’m already veggie or vegan as any right thinking person should be!

    Votes: 49 25.0%

  • I can take it or leave it, I won’t miss meat

    Votes: 31 15.8%

  • I’d give up meat if I could think what else to cook, but I can’t

    Votes: 7 3.6%

  • I’m reluctant to change, but I accept the need

    Votes: 34 17.3%

  • It’s unimaginable that I won’t have meat in most / all meals - I’ll probably starve

    Votes: 8 4.1%

  • Fuck the planet, I’ll be eating meat till I die or the planet explodes

    Votes: 6 3.1%

  • Poll fail, answer below

    Votes: 15 7.7%

  • Don’t believe the hype - meat will be available forever, nothing much will change

    Votes: 46 23.5%
  • Total voters
    196
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Even so it's a big deal for games being held in France !
I will keep an eye out for anti-vegan nonsense in French media...
 
kabbes said:
They’re not, though. The games are increasing their selection of vegetarian food, which is marvellous. But “going veggie” implies the removal of non-vegetarian options, and that’s not happening.
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I did wonder if I should rephrase my post, lest someone take it as an absolute.

They're going veggie-er, might be more accurate.
 
bcuster said:
It's cheese. and it tastes good. so how does an industry known for barbaric treatment of animals react? move the goal post
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You mean like the way tofu is actually ground raw liver?
It isn't cheese. There's no such thing as vegan cheese. There's vegan cheese-alternative or cheese substitute, but it's not cheese.
Some things, like vegan sausages are fine, because sausages can contain pretty much anything, but cheese contains milk. Not almond 'milk' or any other fraudulent imposter, actual real milk from an animal.
 
I don't have a problem with a comp that judges on taste, smell, texture etc. being won by a vegan substitute. It is an achievement to make a vegan cheese that's competition standard.

My problem here is the false idea that these companies are somehow green and saving the planet. They are not. They are a part of the problem when it comes to the question 'how should we farm?', not the solution.
 
So, to attempt to once again get off the merry-go-round of the same stuff that's been discussed before and/or baffling non "gotcha"s, this is quite interesting:

Research confirms environmental benefits of grazing ruminants - Agriland.ie

"This research indicates that grazing ruminant animals on land benefits the environment and improves carbon cycling.

According to the alliance, the results confirm that carbon-neutral, and even net-positive, beef production is possible at Buck Island Ranch, a 10,500ac ranch in Lake Placid, Florida, and that same potential likely extends to environments around the world."

This seems quite pertinent to the thread too:

Ederer, P., 2024. Perspective on scientific truth versus scientific evidence; maintaining integrity in global food systems. Animal Production Science, 64(7).

At the risk of repeating myself: Seems I'm not the only scientist who thinks some of these studies are garbage.
 
Funky_monks said:
So, to attempt to once again get off the merry-go-round of the same stuff that's been discussed before and/or baffling non "gotcha"s, this is quite interesting:

Research confirms environmental benefits of grazing ruminants - Agriland.ie

"This research indicates that grazing ruminant animals on land benefits the environment and improves carbon cycling.

According to the alliance, the results confirm that carbon-neutral, and even net-positive, beef production is possible at Buck Island Ranch, a 10,500ac ranch in Lake Placid, Florida, and that same potential likely extends to environments around the world."

This seems quite pertinent to the thread too:

Ederer, P., 2024. Perspective on scientific truth versus scientific evidence; maintaining integrity in global food systems. Animal Production Science, 64(7).

At the risk of repeating myself: Seems I'm not the only scientist who thinks some of these studies are garbage.
Click to expand...

Industrial US cattle feedlot team up with agribusiness corporation to produce a report saying… cattle farming good lol.

Similar beef industry greenwashing debunked here: https://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/downloads/reports/fcrn_gnc_report.pdf
 
WouldBe said:
There was no need to bin it, it just needed testing/inspecting. Might as well have a go at supermarkets for chucking out food that's reached it's sell by date. :(
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No one is going to inspect 80000 lbs of individually packaged hog meat. It'll go right into the garbage pail and the animals will've died for nothing
 
bcuster said:
No one is going to inspect 80000 lbs of individually packaged hog meat. It'll go right into the garbage pail and the animals will've died for nothing
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You don't inspect every fucking slice you inspect a sample just as you would with every other product including fruit and veg. :facepalm:
 
Jeff Robinson said:
Industrial US cattle feedlot team up with agribusiness corporation to produce a report saying… cattle farming good lol.

Similar beef industry greenwashing debunked here: https://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/downloads/reports/fcrn_gnc_report.pdf
Click to expand...
Luckily, plenty of scientists are calling out their bullshit. The meat industry greenwashers are just like the tobacco industry scum of yesteryear, putting their fat profits above the health of everyone else,

While overwhelming scientific findings consider agriculture, particularly livestock farming, a significant source of planet-warming greenhouse gas emissions, conflicting measurements, marketing and misinformation have been making the facts more difficult to decipher. And it appears the meat industry has been capitalizing on all the confusion.

Ever since the UN’s Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) first dropped a bombshell report on the “enormous” ecological impact of livestock farming back in 2006, the trillion-dollar global meat industry has been on the defensive. The report concluded that cars and coal plants weren’t the only ones spewing out planet-warming greenhouse gases: cattle-rearing was also a top contributor to the climate crisis. The backlash was intense, with FAO staffers recently revealing that pressure from Big Ag led to their work being censored and undermined.
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In the air-conditioned corridors of Dubai’s COP28 climate summit in December, a record-breaking number of meat and dairy delegates descended to soft-sell a new way of measuring their sector’s contribution to the climate crisis. The livestock industry is responsible for nearly a third of heat-trapping methane (the world’s second-biggest driver of climate change). To date, the UN and global governments have been measuring “global warming potential” (GWP) over a 100-year time frame using a metric called GWP100. Since methane breaks down in the atmosphere much sooner than carbon dioxide, which will warm the planet for centuries, an additional metric known as GWP* was proposed by Oxford University scientists in 2016 that factors in methane’s potent short-term impacts, taking 2016 methane emissions as baseline. With one caveat: it was never intended to be used as the sole way to measure animal emissions. But the meat and dairy industry is eating it up.

“Imagine a house is on fire, and someone is actively pouring gas on the fire. They then pour a little less gas and want credit for doing so, despite still feeding the fire. Perhaps they claim they are now ‘fire neutral,’” writes University of California, Davis, researcher Caspar
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And this sounds familiar:

The smoke and mirrors use of “net-zero” is just one of the tactics Big Meat uses to “deny, derail, delay, deflect and distract” meaningful discussion, as the FFA lays out. Meanwhile, the meat industry’s efforts have been focused not only on boosting their own products, but also on turning consumers away from plant-based meat alternatives. During the pandemic, brands like Beyond Meat and Impossible Foods surged in popularity. Touted as more sustainable and ethical, their sales soared. But by 2022 the narrative had shifted. Skepticism grew as critiques around the “ultra-processed” ingredients in plant-based options gained traction.

Full-page ads were taken out in major newspapers by a PR company working for the meat industry, which also ran Super Bowl spots in select markets, all to turn people off foreign-sounding ingredients in “synthetic” meat. The tactics used to dissuade consumers from turning to alternatives worked to complement the meat industry’s move to market its products as climate-friendly.
Click to expand...

sentientmedia.org

The Magical Math of Climate-Friendly Meat

The meat industry is playing with the metrics that measure methane to make climate claims that don't add up.
sentientmedia.org sentientmedia.org
 
Jeff Robinson said:
Industrial US cattle feedlot team up with agribusiness corporation to produce a report saying… cattle farming good lol.

Similar beef industry greenwashing debunked here: https://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/downloads/reports/fcrn_gnc_report.pdf
Click to expand...
it's not at all a feedlot operation. Its right there in the text: It's a grazed operation.

Also, one piece from 2017 doesn't "debunk" anything.

This is not the first example of a grazed ruminant operation sequestering carbon, and not the first study that shows that grazed rangelands are great for a number of species. I've posted a fair few on this thread.

Dublin declaration of scientists now up to 1198 signatures. The "eradicate all meat systems" scientists are a tiny, tiny minority - just like the 2% or so who deny man made climate change. You can accuse the odd scientist of being a shill all you like but nearly 1200 of them? All shills? That's verging on conspiracy theory stuff tbh.

Signatures of the Dublin declaration
 
Looks like it's time to post this again:

The “Dublin Declaration of Scientists on the Societal Role of Livestock” says livestock “are too precious to society to become the victim of simplification, reductionism or zealotry” and calls for a “balanced view of the future of animal agriculture”. One of the authors of the declaration is an economist who called veganism an “eating disorder requiring psychological treatment”.

The declaration was published a year ago but gave no information on its provenance. Its supporters appear to be overwhelmingly researchers in animal, agricultural and food sciences.

Documents obtained by Unearthed, Greenpeace UK’s journalism project, and seen by the Guardian, show the creation, launch and promotion of the declaration have significant links to the livestock industry and its consultants.

The declaration and associated studies are viewed as “propaganda” by leading environmental scientists. Prof Matthew Hayek of New York University in the US said: “The scientific consensus is that we need rapid meat reduction in the regions that can afford that choice.”
Click to expand...

The Dublin Declaration website is hosted by a meat industry research project called the International Meat Research G3 Foundation, which is registered to the same Warsaw address as the Polish Beef Association (PBA) and is chaired by the PBA’s president.

The declaration was publicly promoted by the Global Meat Alliance, an industry-funded group, and the PR agency Red Flag, which has worked for the North American Meat Institute and the US National Cattlemen’s Beef Association. Ederer said he did not know who paid Red Flag.
Click to expand...

Prof Peter Smith of the University of Aberdeen, UK, a lead author on eight reports by the authoritative Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, said: “The Dublin Declaration reads more like livestock industry propaganda than science. It makes a mockery of independent, objective science publishing. This is not about stifling debate – it is about protecting scientific integrity.”
Click to expand...

www.theguardian.com

Revealed: the industry figures behind ‘declaration of scientists’ backing meat eating

Document used to target top EU officials over environmental and health policies but climate experts view it as propaganda
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
I responded to that the first time it was posted.

The idea that 1200 scientists are "in the pocket of big meat" and the handful of outliers (like the 120, ie 1% surveyed in the Harvard article editor posted a while back) are somehow fighters for truth and justice by going against the scientific consensus sounds very much like conspiracy theory stuff to me.

Why can't I make a singular post without editor (who supposedly has me on ignore) poling into the thread minutes afterwards and posting some bollocks that often has fuck all to do with the thing I've posted?

Honestly. I wasn't aware of the "urban is macho" thread that Agent Sparrow posted - but I think very little of it is coming from my direction (unless arguing your points using peer-reviewed studies whilst being called every name under the sun by a frothing loon and his sidekick who just posts up the same old shit over and over is somehow machismo).

Fuck, no wonder scientists are more and more worried in this climate.
 
Funky_monks said:
Also, one piece from 2017 doesn't "debunk" anything.
Click to expand...
Seems their research is funded by groups such as State Street, one of the biggest investment companies in the world, who also happen to own 113 Million shares in Tyson Foods, one of the largest chicken producers in the world. I wonder how much their research is influenced by their investors.
 
Saul Goodman said:
Seems their research is funded by groups such as State Street, one of the biggest investment companies in the world, who also happen to own 113 Million shares in Tyson Foods, one of the largest chicken producers in the world. I wonder how much their research is influenced by their investors.
Click to expand...

It's almost like I have to keep pointing out on this thread that the massive industrial food processors couldn't give a fuck about the planet and are developing meat substitutes whilst also processing meat because the margins on them have the potential to be much greater and they don't have to deal with tricksy little farmers anymore, presumably because in the developed world acquiring land as fast as they'd like to own the entire food supply chain isn't going so well - although Bill Gates seems to have managed.

It does give Yannis Viroufakis idea of neo feudalism some merit though.
 
Funky_monks said:
It's almost like I have to keep pointing out on this thread that the massive industrial food processors couldn't give a fuck about the planet and are developing meat substitutes whilst also processing meat because the margins on them have the potential to be much greater and they don't have to deal with tricksy little farmers anymore, presumably because in the developed world acquiring land as fast as they'd like to own the entire food supply chain isn't going so well - although Bill Gates seems to have managed.

It does give Yannis Viroufakis idea of neo feudalism some merit though.
Click to expand...
Meat substitutes are where the money is, and where the "meat bad!" research seems to be coming from.
 
As discussed before, sadly The Guardian is far from an unbiased source on this question. I have no idea who Steve Katasi is beyond what I could google - a nutritionist on a mission, it appears - but I fact-checked a couple of key points in this article and they bear out. The Guardian has received a shit-load of money from the OPP and the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, and that money has been given to push certain ideas about farming. The Guardian is not a trustworthy source on this, sadly. They like to paint themselves as fiercely independent, but they're not.

The Truth About The Guardian's Plant-Based 'Ethics' | AdapNation
 
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