Bye bye MEAT! How will the post-meat future look?

[littlebabyjesus]

That title is a strange spin on what's happening, when the real story is the absolutely massive shift to non-dairy milk.

15 years ago just about everyone was drinking cow's milk, Now it's barely more than half of the population (52% of respondents say they still drink some type of milk at least occasionally).

And why Media Dietitian, Spokeswoman, Brand Consultant, Dieting Specialist & Coach Nicole Ibarra's opinion is seen as so important in that article truly baffles me.

Meanwhile:

Most plant-based meat and dairy alternatives have lower saturated fat and higher fibre, study finds

Plant-based alternatives also have substantially lower environmental impacts, including lower greenhouse gas emissions, use of water resources and land use, according to a review of evidence.

news.sky.com

Have you read that sky article? It lumps meat and dairy alternatives together, so it isn't really helpful for this argument. It's not really very well written tbh. It's useful fact-lite. But it states that the results for plant-based drinks are mixed, citing micronutrient deficiencies, which backs up what is said in the article from bcuster. It also highlights the saturated fat content of non-dairy cheese alternatives.

If you're looking at a potential shift from dairy, also to be considered are the people who don't drink milk but do eat cheese, butter or yoghurt. I don't know the numbers for non-dairy cheese alternatives, but I would wager that they're not high.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

15 years ago just about everyone was drinking cow's milk, Now it's barely more than half of the population (52% of respondents say they still drink some type of milk at least occasionally).

Do you have a source that gives this stat? The US survey says that 31% of respondents 'rarely or never' drink milk. It doesn't suggest non-milk-drinking is a new phenomenon. Tea drinking isn't such a thing in the US so maybe that number is lower here? Dunno. But anyway, 'just about everyone'? You sure?

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Conclusion from the study:

If carefully selected, certain Novel Plant-based Foods (NPBFs) have the potential to be healthier and nutrient-rich alternatives to Animal Based Foods (ABFs) and typically have smaller environmental footprints. More disaggregated categorization of various types of NPBFs would be a helpful step in guiding consumers and key stakeholders to make informed decisions. To enable informed policymaking on the inclusion of NPBFs in dietary transitions as part of a wider net-zero and health strategy, future priorities should include nutritional food standards, labelling, and subdivisions or categorizations of NPBFs, as well as short- and long-term health studies evaluating dietary shifts from ABFs to NPBFs and standardized environmental impact assessments, ideally from independent funders.

Mapping the evidence of novel plant-based foods: a systematic review of nutritional, health, and environmental impacts in high-income countries

AbstractContext. Shifting from current dietary patterns to diets rich in plant-based (PB) foods and lower in animal-based foods (ABFs) is generally regarde

academic.oup.com

Certainly seems a lot more nuanced than the "OMG all vegan meats are UPF and wil Kill you in 3 dayz tops eAt bacon and lard insted" crap spewed by the meatists here

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Meanwhile, people in the UK are spending more than ever on cheese. This is down to increased prices rather than increased volume, but it doesn't support the idea of a mass switch away from dairy.



Butter production in the UK has risen massively in recent years. I must admit I was surprised by that one. I guess more people are switching away from margarine.



And finally yoghurt. This is by value of market rather than production, and much more mixed results - on the decline seemingly.





The butter and yoghurt stats surprise me a little. But overall, there is no evidence of a major switch from these major dairy products in the last 15 years or so.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And for completeness, milk consumption in the UK is in long-term decline, down by 50% in the last half-century. The graph continues to go down. Estimated figure for this year is 60 litres per person per year, so down from 70 six years ago. This is partly due to the massive rise in the price of milk post-pandemic.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

In conclusion, there is no evidence of a massive shift away from dairy. I suspect that the impression some people get that there has been one comes from observation of friendship groups that aren't representative of the population as a whole.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

In conclusion, there is no evidence of a massive shift away from dairy.

Editor mentioned only a shift from dairy to non-dairy milks. None of your graphs contradict that.

 

[bcuster]

Meanwhile, people in the UK are spending more than ever on cheese. This is down to increased prices rather than increased volume, but it doesn't support the idea of a mass switch away from dairy.

View attachment 422081

Butter production in the UK has risen massively in recent years. I must admit I was surprised by that one. I guess more people are switching away from margarine.

View attachment 422082

And finally yoghurt. This is by value of market rather than production, and much more mixed results - on the decline seemingly.


View attachment 422083


The butter and yoghurt stats surprise me a little. But overall, there is no evidence of a major switch from these major dairy products in the last 15 years or so.

I believe this may be a response to the skyrocketing cost of meat. People need protein.
Perhaps, if by the implementation of humane dairy techniques, there is a proportional increase in dairy prices, people would finally seek plant sources for protein.

Wni-win for all: the farmers (higher prices), the animals (ethical treatment) and for the populace ( a cheap, kind, ethical source of protein: plants)

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Editor mentioned only a shift from dairy to non-dairy milks. None of your graphs contradict that.

Well just looking at the consumption of milk as milk, that has gone down from 80 to 60 litres per head per year in the last 15 years. In the 15 years previous to that, it went down from 100 to 80. The long-term trend is less milk consumption. This trend maps quite well onto the long-term decline in tea drinking in the UK. I don't think the two trends are completely unrelated.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

In terms of the relative sizes of markets, yes, non-dairy milk has grown in size over the last 15 years, but from a very small number. The value of the non-dairy market is 10% of that of dairy milk - roughly £600m vs £6billion. It costs a bit more per litre than dairy milk, so that equals a little less than that in terms of volume consumed.

Not nothing. Perhaps 6 or 7 per cent of all the 'milk' sold by volume, up from less than half that 15 years ago. But still not a 'massive shift'.

 

[bcuster]

In terms of the relative sizes of markets, yes, non-dairy milk has grown in size over the last 15 years, but from a very small number. The value of the non-dairy market is 10% of that of dairy milk - roughly £600m vs £6billion. It costs a bit more per litre than dairy milk, so that equals a little less than that in terms of volume consumed.

Not nothing. Perhaps 6 or 7 per cent of all the 'milk' sold by volume, up from less than half that 15 years ago. But still not a 'massive shift'.

The answer is to drive the price of dairy milk up by implementing mandatory etthical standards for treatment of milk producing animals

 

[bcuster]

Plus, there's this:

1 in 5 samples of pasteurized milk had bird flu virus fragments, FDA says

Milk sampled from areas with infected herds of dairy cows was more likely to be positive.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So fragments that are no danger to people. That's something of a non-story, bit like the various stories about poo in milk.

Food has other stuff on/in it. Well no shit sherlock.

 

[bcuster]

So fragments that are no danger to people. That's something of a non-story, bit like the various stories about poo in milk.

Food has other stuff on/in it. Well no shit sherlock.

International Dairy Foods Association

www.idfa.org

would seem to agree with you

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There are plenty of arguments to be made against the dairy industry, but the idea that drinking milk is unhealthy isn't one of them and neither is the idea that milk is a potential health hazard.

 

[Saul Goodman]

There are plenty of arguments to be made against the dairy industry, but the idea that drinking milk is unhealthy isn't one of them and neither is the idea that milk is a potential health hazard.

Neither is the idea that cow shit is somehow worse for the environment than artificial fertiliser.
If any of these people actually gave as much of a shite about the planet as they do about arguing, they'd soon realise how deluded they are.

 

[bcuster]

Neither is the idea that cow shit is somehow worse for the environment than artificial fertiliser.
If any of these people actually gave as much of a shite about the planet as they do about arguing, they'd soon realise how deluded they are.

That has never been my primary concern in this thread. My primary concern is the one that the least satisfactory arguments to counter have thus far been made.

That is to say: the ethical treatment of animals

 

[JimW]

Conclusion from the study:

Mapping the evidence of novel plant-based foods: a systematic review of nutritional, health, and environmental impacts in high-income countries

AbstractContext. Shifting from current dietary patterns to diets rich in plant-based (PB) foods and lower in animal-based foods (ABFs) is generally regarde

academic.oup.com

Certainly seems a lot more nuanced than the "OMG all vegan meats are UPF and wil Kill you in 3 dayz tops eAt bacon and lard insted" crap spewed by the meatists here

Is that this study that Sky gives a summary report on: Most plant-based meat and dairy alternatives have lower saturated fat and higher fibre, study finds ?

 

[bcuster]

The dairy lobby stacks the deck:

A vegan cheese was selected to win an industry award. Then the industry found out.​

https://boingboing.net/2024/04/29/a-vegan-cheese-was-selected-to-win-an-industry-award-then-the-industry-found-out.html

 

[CNT36]

Synthetic fertilisers are killing the planet.

Harmful Effects of Synthetic Fertilizers on the Environment | Northern Wild Seeds | Nature With Us

Order native tree, plant, and wildflower seeds + seedlings. Located in northern BC, we sell online to wild plant enthusiasts and restoration companies.

naturewithus.com

Fertilizer: a new battleground in the fight to solve the climate crisis | One Earth

In a new report, The Center for International Environmental Law exposes how the fossil fuel industry seeks to increase the production of fossil-based agrochemicals.

www.oneearth.org

New research shows 50 year binge on chemical fertilisers must end to address the climate crisis

The rising costs of synthetic nitrogen (N) fertilisers, triggered by a spike in natural gas prices, has governments panicking about a catastrophic global food crisis. At the same time, new research shows that synthetic N fertilisers are a major driver of the climate crisis, responsible for 1 out...

www.iatp.org

Shit farms.

 

[kabbes]

The dairy lobby stacks the deck:

A vegan cheese was selected to win an industry award. Then the industry found out.​

https://boingboing.net/2024/04/29/a-vegan-cheese-was-selected-to-win-an-industry-award-then-the-industry-found-out.html

Seems fair enough really.

"One could make the argument that this is like a fraudulent cheese," Kehler said. "As a cheesemaker, it's a fraud. It looks like a cheese. It might taste like a cheese. But it's not. It's not connected to our historical understanding of what cheeses are."

Well, quite. If you’re going to have a cheese award, that does rather imply that a cheese will win it. What’s next? A competition for violinists that is won by a trumpeter?

 

[klang]

Might be time to move on from competitions, they seem to be the cause for too many upsets.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I would have thought they should allow it. If the tasters can't tell the difference, that says something.

Doing some digging into Climax Foods, a familiar pattern emerges. It is part-owned and financed by Bel Group, the multinational behind Babybel. So while it was perhaps not a fair move to disqualify their vegan cheese, this comment is grounded in truth:

These are engineered products. And they're part of a financialized food system that's fueled by venture capital and disconnected from nature

 

[kabbes]

I would have thought they should allow it. If the tasters can't tell the difference, that says something.

I disagree. The fact that you can use a completely different process with completely different ingredients to produce something that tastes the same doesn’t mean the thing you have produced is the same thing. It is, as the guy says, a fraud.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I disagree. The fact that you can use a completely different process with completely different ingredients to produce something that tastes the same doesn’t mean the thing you have produced is the same thing. It is, as the guy says, a fraud.

Yeah but it comes across badly that they've only decided to ban vegan cheese now someone's produced a good one. They're moving the goalposts.

It is all too predictable that the company in question is financed by a huge multinational that employs some of the worst farming practices on the planet, though. It appears that they all are.

 

[kabbes]

Yeah but it comes across badly that they've only decided to ban vegan cheese now someone's produced a good one. They're moving the goalposts.

It was certainly naive of them not to write their rules thoroughly in the first place. But if you say that you’re having a competition for cheese and somebody submits something that isn’t cheese, I’d say it’s kind of inherent to the basis of the competition that you can throw out the non-cheese. That cheese is made from the curds of milk is so accepted a definition that this is actually how it is defined in my dictionary. Just because somebody calls their thing that isn’t made from the curds of milk “cheese” doesn’t mean that you have to recognise it as cheese.

ΕTA: e.g., see Definition of CHEESE

Definition 1 is that cheese is made from the curds of milk. Definition 2 is “something that resembles cheese”, which is odd, in that it is premised on the idea that there is a thing that is actually cheese, and this new thing is not it despite resembling it.

 

[Karl Masks]

The dairy lobby stacks the deck:

A vegan cheese was selected to win an industry award. Then the industry found out.​

https://boingboing.net/2024/04/29/a-vegan-cheese-was-selected-to-win-an-industry-award-then-the-industry-found-out.html

But it's not dairy. I mean dairy has a definition after all

 

[bcuster]

But it's not dairy. I mean dairy has a definition after all

It's cheese. and it tastes good. so how does an industry known for barbaric treatment of animals react? move the goal post

 

[Karl Masks]

It's cheese. and it tastes good. so how does an industry known for barbaric treatment of animals react? move the goal post

I don't care what you call it, but it's not dairy. To that point, how the industry operates - which i don't dispute - isn't really the issue. In fact if that matters to you, why would you want to win an award from such an industry. It all seems weird.

 

[kabbes]

It's cheese.

It’s not cheese in any technical sense. That doesn’t inherently make it bad, and there’s nothing wrong with lay people calling it cheese in a colloquial way, but when it comes to competitions then, well, cheese is cheese and non-cheese is not cheese.