Bye bye MEAT! How will the post-meat future look?
- Thread starter MrCurry
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butcher
boner at the ready
I have written less meat plenty myself but less better quality, better farmed meat and the reply was that only the well off could afford it.
Funky_monks
Neo-Rustic
Literally nobody on this thread has called for the existing situation to continue.
I did object to faintly ridiculous yes/no answer questions like "Should we eat less meat".
None of this was what the thread was about - it was the prospect of replacing meat with highly processed UPF manufactured meat (and dairy) substitutes to "save the planet"
Even Prof Myles Allen who is fairly critical of animal agriculture reckons that even if we killed off all the farmed ruminants tomorrow, we might prevent 0.1C of warming.
I had many and several (well sourced) objections to this idea and the idea that farming animals is intrinsically "bad for the environment", and farming crops is intrinsically "good for the environment" (or, at the very least much better than any animal agriculture).
For my trouble I am:
To wring ones hands and claim that all they ever did was say that people should eat less meat and they were somehow set upon for this, is so utterly fucking disingenuous.
I did object to faintly ridiculous yes/no answer questions like "Should we eat less meat".
None of this was what the thread was about - it was the prospect of replacing meat with highly processed UPF manufactured meat (and dairy) substitutes to "save the planet"
Even Prof Myles Allen who is fairly critical of animal agriculture reckons that even if we killed off all the farmed ruminants tomorrow, we might prevent 0.1C of warming.
I had many and several (well sourced) objections to this idea and the idea that farming animals is intrinsically "bad for the environment", and farming crops is intrinsically "good for the environment" (or, at the very least much better than any animal agriculture).
For my trouble I am:
- An "industry shill" (for "big meat" apparently - along with the thousand or so other scientists who signed the Dublin Declaration)
- A crank
- A r*pe apologist
- Someone comparable to the pro-tobacco lobby
To wring ones hands and claim that all they ever did was say that people should eat less meat and they were somehow set upon for this, is so utterly fucking disingenuous.
bcuster
Well-Known Member
This is a good response.
I'd like for you , as a member of the agricultural field, to address the issue of cruel treatment of farm animals
Funky_monks
Neo-Rustic
Funky_monks
Neo-Rustic
Yes, sorry- reeds (Phragmytes) and reedmace have edible tubers.
bcuster
Well-Known Member
There hasn't been a single post (from anyone) in 157 pages that has adequately addressed the issue.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Some posters on this thread think it is wrong to keep animals with the intention of killing and eating them. More than that, the idea disgusts and repels them.
Others don't have a problem with it.
Depending on your attitude towards that question, you're going to have different ideas about what is and is not cruel treatment.
butcher
boner at the ready
Go ahead then.
Funky_monks
Neo-Rustic
I suppose very broadly, the role/development of livestock agriculture is this:
Humans were overconsuming large herbivores and so began rudimentary animal agriculture, perhaps at first helping those animals thrive, perhaps by driving them to better pasture/providing habitat (see: deer forests) and some form of protection from predators. So it developed thus - humans would ensure that their prey animals thrived in number, firstly by protecting them from other predators and then latterly by taking further steps to ensure they survived by helping them give birth, aiding in disease prevention, and much much latterly, attempting to cure some diseases. Some forms of livestock were fed human waste in the form of foods we cannot eat or are left over (see: slops for pigs, stale bread etc for chickens, brewer's grains, grain not fit for human consumption etc etc) or were helped not to starve over winter by humans preserving their food source (see: hay, silage). In turn, the genetics of these animals spread as human aid helped them to exist in greater and greater numbers. At some point we started to breed from the animals that "did" better in the circumstances that they were provided with, in the UK mid 1700s, Robert Bakewell formalised this into selective breeding.
so: our side of the "bargain" is twofold
1) Some level of protection from predators, aid in giving birth, keeping the animals fed and productive, enabling their genetics to proliferate.
2) A (often, much) nicer death than nature would give them.
Humans were overconsuming large herbivores and so began rudimentary animal agriculture, perhaps at first helping those animals thrive, perhaps by driving them to better pasture/providing habitat (see: deer forests) and some form of protection from predators. So it developed thus - humans would ensure that their prey animals thrived in number, firstly by protecting them from other predators and then latterly by taking further steps to ensure they survived by helping them give birth, aiding in disease prevention, and much much latterly, attempting to cure some diseases. Some forms of livestock were fed human waste in the form of foods we cannot eat or are left over (see: slops for pigs, stale bread etc for chickens, brewer's grains, grain not fit for human consumption etc etc) or were helped not to starve over winter by humans preserving their food source (see: hay, silage). In turn, the genetics of these animals spread as human aid helped them to exist in greater and greater numbers. At some point we started to breed from the animals that "did" better in the circumstances that they were provided with, in the UK mid 1700s, Robert Bakewell formalised this into selective breeding.
so: our side of the "bargain" is twofold
1) Some level of protection from predators, aid in giving birth, keeping the animals fed and productive, enabling their genetics to proliferate.
2) A (often, much) nicer death than nature would give them.
bcuster
Well-Known Member
2) A (often, much) nicer death than nature would give them.: This one I question
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Most wild animals die from predation, starvation or disease, or some combination of the three. Death in the wild is often slow and painful, and may be preceded by a period of extreme terror.
bcuster
Well-Known Member
Agreed. How is what we offer in that regard better?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
You probably object to various forms of industrialised slaughter, but efforts have been made in abattoirs to keep cows calm, for example, following the ideas of Temple Grandin and others. So they don't get massively stressed in the lead up to having a bolt fired into their brains. When that bolt is fired into their brains, it is very likely that conscious awareness is ended instantly, probably before it has had the chance to register pain - that's what our best ideas of neuroscience tell us is likely.
At a different level, I've killed a chicken in a non-industrial setting. It didn't struggle and didn't appear to know it was about to be killed. I've also witnessed the killing of a pig in a non-industrial setting. The pig did have an understanding of what was going on and was clearly terrified.
However, I wouldn't underestimate how horrible most deaths in the wild are. It is a notable feature of evolution that there is no selection pressure for an easy death. Mechanisms that have evolved to keep us alive, such as pain, ensure that death is generally incredibly unpleasant.
editor
hiraethified
The vast majority of UK animals face an early death in factory farms.
Of the 1.12 billion chickens killed for meat annually in the UK, around 95 percent are factory farmed. Hundreds of thousands of these birds can be kept in one barn. They are often afforded a piece of space smaller than an A4 sheet of paper.
Of the 1.12 billion chickens killed for meat annually in the UK, around 95 percent are factory farmed. Hundreds of thousands of these birds can be kept in one barn. They are often afforded a piece of space smaller than an A4 sheet of paper.
bcuster
Well-Known Member
The whole discussion is making me sad.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I'm sorry it makes you sad. Maybe leave it for a while.
I think many of us are going to continue talking at crossed purposes here if, for some, the act of killing itself is an act of cruelty. I think it can be but need not be necessarily. But I know some others don't think there is such a thing as a right way to kill an animal. At the very least, in order to talk to one another about this topic, this point of disagreement needs to be acknowledged.
Regarding an alien landing on Earth and discovering that the dominant species eats other animals, if that alien had any understanding at all of evolution, they would not be at all surprised. Complex animal life exploded onto the scene at the end of the Ediacaran period roughly 540 million years ago. Up to then, the animals that existed had been simple forms very probably with no conscious awareness of any kind. From the start of the Cambrian, all sorts of new life forms appeared, and the driving force of change and increased complexity was a new phenomenon: predation.
I think many of us are going to continue talking at crossed purposes here if, for some, the act of killing itself is an act of cruelty. I think it can be but need not be necessarily. But I know some others don't think there is such a thing as a right way to kill an animal. At the very least, in order to talk to one another about this topic, this point of disagreement needs to be acknowledged.
Regarding an alien landing on Earth and discovering that the dominant species eats other animals, if that alien had any understanding at all of evolution, they would not be at all surprised. Complex animal life exploded onto the scene at the end of the Ediacaran period roughly 540 million years ago. Up to then, the animals that existed had been simple forms very probably with no conscious awareness of any kind. From the start of the Cambrian, all sorts of new life forms appeared, and the driving force of change and increased complexity was a new phenomenon: predation.
Funky_monks
Neo-Rustic
Perhaps watch a nature documentary?
Or observe a cat?
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
Dolphins are sadistic cunts. There was an eerie dark side lurking beneath Flipper's cute facade. Won't somebody think of the porpoises!
Funky_monks
Neo-Rustic
Weirdly, I think dolphins and their tendency to kill porpoises for sport has been discussed already - plus their sexual predilections in that regard.
WouldBe
Dislicksick
Just what I was going to say. I'm sure a gazelle is terrified and in agony as it gets torn to pieces by a lion.
bcuster
Well-Known Member
or by a human, who allegedly knows better and has a moral compass...Just what I was going to say. I'm sure a gazelle is terrified and in agony as it gets torn to pieces by a lion.
WouldBe
Dislicksick
Idiot.
bcuster
Well-Known Member
you'll fit right in here w/ your fellow carnivores, jackass...
Funky_monks
Neo-Rustic
"Know better" than what? All other predatory animals?
We are predatory animals, which, in the natural world (which we are a part of, like it or not) is perfectly usual.
When do humans ever tear anything to pieces?
Even yer hunter gatherer types shoot it with a bow or kill it with something else pointy.
Please try and learn at least some rudimentary things about the natural world around you.
Cuetsy anthropomorphic videos are not based in reality.
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butcher
boner at the ready
As a person who deals with meat on a daily basis, I can tell you without doubt that carcasses from stressed animals are worth less than carcasses from unstressed animals, you can work it out.
However, I am sure someone will be along to tell me I don't know my job either.
However, I am sure someone will be along to tell me I don't know my job either.
Funky_monks
Neo-Rustic
Without dusting off any papers, I remember it thus:
More adrenaline in the carcass (ie stressed) - higher carcass pH, - longer rigor mortis - longer hanging time - reduced meat tenderness
WouldBe
Dislicksick
So where do we treat animals we eat like a lion ripping a gazelle to shreds?
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