Bye bye MEAT! How will the post-meat future look?

[Karl Masks]

Happily, it's not all about you and millions have already managed to start reducing their meat intake, like everyone should be doing.

The only lever that I can pull is the one that is about me, which is what you're asking me to do, so the equivocation isn't productive

 

[Monte]

My father used to farm lambs, and I've seen it all too often. Grey crows seem to be the worst for it here, they're devious little fuckers. If a lamb was born outside it was almost guaranteed to lose its eyes within minutes.

On many an occasion I've watched as crows and magpies land on a sheep's head and gently pick bugs off their faces.

 

[Karl Masks]

I'm not desperately opposed to the EAT Lancet people, i know many in the crank carnivore beef brigade are (loons like Ivor Cummins, Zoe Harcombe, Jordan Peterstwat, and others)

But there are criticisms that seem valid: Adherence to the EAT–Lancet Diet: Unintended Consequences for the Brain?.

 

[editor]

I'm not desperately opposed to the EAT Lancet people, i know many in the crank carnivore beef brigade are (loons like Ivor Cummins, Zoe Harcombe, Jordan Peterstwat, and others)

But there are criticisms that seem valid: Adherence to the EAT–Lancet Diet: Unintended Consequences for the Brain?.

I've no problem with this statement. The world HAS to move towards more sustainable diets and that absolutely means eating less meat.

There is a need to better optimise the EAT–Lancet diet to support brain health. As we move towards more sustainable diets, these findings emphasise the need to consider how such diets might affect the brain.

 

[Monte]

The good thing about carbon emissions from cattle farts is they can be offset elsewhere. Nitrates from chemical fertilisers, on the other hand, can't be offset. They're polluting the rivers and killing everything, and the more people turn vege, the worse it's going to get.

Nitrates from animal production also causes problems for our environment. When you take into account the fact that some 45% of the wheat grown in this country goes to animal feed the effect is compounded.

 

[kabbes]

Pets are an extension of the self. Eating a pet would essentially be cannibalism. It’s not about the animal, it’s about the human that the animal is seen to be a part of. Even pet animals without an owner are still seen as extensions of humans.

There’s loads of literature about this. For example

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0969698923002485#:~:text=Pet%20owners%20who%20regard%20pets,self%20(Belk%2C%201988).

 

[Monte]

The ingredients of these milks is as scary as the price. I don't see them really taking off

On average it takes 12 litres of water to grow a single almond. Over 7 tons of water to grow a pound.
Almond milk is probably more damaging than the real thing.
The biggest almond producing area in the world is drought stricken California.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

On average it takes 12 litres of water to grow a single almond. Over 7 tons of water to grow a pound.
Almond milk is probably more damaging than the real thing.
The biggest almond producing area in the world is drought stricken California.

It totally dominates. More than 80 per cent of the world's almonds come from California. And as you suggest, they're not grown sustainably.

When discussing water requirements, you have to distinguish between different sources of water. There is so-called 'green water', which is water held in soils and plants and precipitation. Then there is 'blue water', which is water in lakes, rivers or underground aquifers.

Essentially, agriculture that relies solely or largely on green water doesn't present a problem. It takes an awful lot of water to grow a sheep, for instance, but if those sheep are grazing fields in Wales or New Zealand, their water needs come from green water. So 'x-litres of water per kilo of lamb' needs to be considered in this context. By contrast, almonds in California rely very heavily on blue water, to the detriment of the local people. Almond orchards do have the potential to act as carbon sinks, but then again so does healthy pasture. As Funk Monks has pointed out, the capacity of biodiverse grasslands to sequester carbon is only now being fully appreciated.

 

[Monte]

I think the answer lies in pricing.
Ban the more intensive methods of producing cheap meat using animal welfare laws.
Return to high quality, high price meat that becomes an occasional treat for most people as it was in the past and still is in many parts of the world.
This will result in more grazing land and better sustainability for small farmers.
There would be plenty of land available if we stopped using so much of it to grow grains for animal feed. Sheep and cows could return to their natural diet with grass in the summer and hay in the winter. Pastureland is mostly self fertilising as the animals provide it naturally.
Once you improve the living conditions of animals, such as chicken and pigs, prices will rise and consumption will fall.

 

[editor]

The ingredients of these milks is as scary as the price. I don't see them really taking off

You clearly have no idea what's going on in that sector:

In 2020, one in three people were buying plant-based milk, with Brits spending £100 million on dairy-free alternatives, according to The Guardian and Ipsos data shows that 46% are considering reducing their intake of animal products in the future.

Got milk? Why plant-based alternatives are shaking up the dairy sector

A wide range of milk alternative products have emerged in recent years, but will plant-based milk takeover or is dairy set to stay? GG investigates...

www.grocerygazette.co.uk

United Kingdom Dairy Alternatives Market Size | Mordor Intelligence

The United Kingdom Dairy Alternatives Market size is expected to reach USD 1.81 billion in 2024 and grow at a CAGR of 17.70% to reach USD 4.08 billion by 2029.

www.mordorintelligence.com

 

[Karl Masks]

You clearly have no idea what's going on in that sector:

Got milk? Why plant-based alternatives are shaking up the dairy sector

A wide range of milk alternative products have emerged in recent years, but will plant-based milk takeover or is dairy set to stay? GG investigates...

www.grocerygazette.co.uk

View attachment 416493

United Kingdom Dairy Alternatives Market Size | Mordor Intelligence

The United Kingdom Dairy Alternatives Market size is expected to reach USD 1.81 billion in 2024 and grow at a CAGR of 17.70% to reach USD 4.08 billion by 2029.

www.mordorintelligence.com

I'm more concerned about the ingredients honestly. If they are selling well then great. I don't have any issue with people drinking non dairy milks at all

 

[editor]

I'm more concerned about the ingredients honestly. If they are selling well then great. I don't have any issue with people drinking non dairy milks at all

Specifically what ingredients are causing you concern, and what studies have conclusively warned of these supposed health dangers?

Meanwhile:

Plant based milks versus dairy milk | Ethical Consumer

More and more people in the UK are switching to plant-based milks as an alternative to dairy. How much better are they for the climate, what about nutrition, and which is the best plant milk for the environment?

www.ethicalconsumer.org

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Litres of freshwater used is a very misleading stat. For milk in the UK, most of that water will be green water. For almonds (which nearly all come from California), most of the water will be blue water. In reality, their relative impact wrt water usage is not as that chart suggests.

That they are willing to be misleading in that stat makes me think all the other stats need investigating too.

There is also the question of the various milks' relative nutritional values. Cow's milk contains more nutrition per litre than almond milk, and by just concentrating on the quantity in litres, you're missing that aspect. Cow's milk is complete protein, for example, while almond milk is not. Cow's milk also contains lots of B vitamins, including of course B12.

 

[editor]

And from another (excellent) source:

Cow’s milk has significantly higher impacts than the plant-based alternatives across all metrics. It causes around three times as much greenhouse gas emissions; uses around ten times as much land; two to twenty times as much freshwater; and creates much higher levels of eutrophication.

Dairy vs. plant-based milk: what are the environmental impacts?

A growing number of people are interested in switching to plant-based alternatives to dairy. But are they better for the environment, and which is best?

ourworldindata.org

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Ah, Poore & Nemecek (2018). How many times have you repeated the same source on this thread? In reality you're just posting up the same thing again and again and again.

As mentioned many times before, there are various limitations to P&N (2018). Their stats wrt cow emissions are highly questionable and probably wrong because of the way they calculated them, while you can't create charts that generalise across the world. If you're buying milk here in the UK, it is the UK's stats that you need wrt things like water usage (mostly green, no problem), emissions (are they grazing most of the year, if so, they will be lower than the figures normally used from P&N (2018)), and eutrophication (this is much higher with intensive farming methods, which are still mostly absent from the UK - but we need to beware of the spread of more intensive methods).

 

[Funky_monks]

On the risks of UPFs (which all plant milks are):
Elizabeth, L., Machado, P., Zinöcker, M., Baker, P. and Lawrence, M., 2020. Ultra-processed foods and health outcomes: a narrative review. Nutrients, 12(7), p.1955.
Chen, X., Zhang, Z., Yang, H., Qiu, P., Wang, H., Wang, F., Zhao, Q., Fang, J. and Nie, J., 2020. Consumption of ultra-processed foods and health outcomes: a systematic review of epidemiological studies. Nutrition journal, 19, pp.1-10.
Pagliai, G., Dinu, M., Madarena, M.P., Bonaccio, M., Iacoviello, L. and Sofi, F., 2021. Consumption of ultra-processed foods and health status: a systematic review and meta-analysis. British Journal of Nutrition, 125(3), pp.308-318.
Hall, K.D., Ayuketah, A., Brychta, R., Cai, H., Cassimatis, T., Chen, K.Y., Chung, S.T., Costa, E., Courville, A., Darcey, V. and Fletcher, L.A., 2019. Ultra-processed diets cause excess calorie intake and weight gain: an inpatient randomized controlled trial of ad libitum food intake. Cell metabolism, 30(1), pp.67-77.

Often are actually worse for the environment than they claim:
Seferidi, P., Scrinis, G., Huybrechts, I., Woods, J., Vineis, P. and Millett, C., 2020. The neglected environmental impacts of ultra-processed foods. The Lancet Planetary Health, 4(10), pp.e437-e438.

Health benefits of (sometimes full fat) dairy:

Hirahatake, K.M., Astrup, A., Hill, J.O., Slavin, J.L., Allison, D.B. and Maki, K.C., 2020. Potential cardiometabolic health benefits of full-fat dairy: the evidence base. Advances in Nutrition, 11(3), pp.533-547.
Rosa, M.C., Carmo, M.R., Balthazar, C.F., Guimarães, J.T., Esmerino, E.A., Freitas, M.Q., Silva, M.C., Pimentel, T.C. and Cruz, A.G., 2021. Dairy products with prebiotics: An overview of the health benefits, technological and sensory properties. International Dairy Journal, 117, p.105009.
Bruno, R.S., Pokala, A., Torres-Gonzalez, M. and Blesso, C.N., 2021. Cardiometabolic health benefits of dairy-milk polar lipids. Nutrition reviews, 79(Supplement_2), pp.16-35.

Also, once again Ed's little (very thinky veiled) advert for plant milks uses P&N, 2018......

 

[Funky_monks]

Ah, Poore & Nemecek (2018). How many times have you repeated the same source on this thread? In reality you're just posting up the same thing again and again and again.

As mentioned many times before, there are various limitations to P&N (2018). Their stats wrt cow emissions are highly questionable and probably wrong because of the way they calculated them, while you can't create charts that generalise across the world. If you're buying milk here in the UK, it is the UK's stats that you need wrt things like water usage (mostly green, no problem), emissions (are they grazing most of the year, if so, they will be lower than the figures normally used from P&N (2018)), and eutrophication (this is much higher with intensive farming methods, which are still mostly absent from the UK - but we need to beware of the spread of more intensive methods).

Its mad, there's been so much research since then and yet it's clung to by certain people (especially those manufacturing UPF plant based foods), wonder why?

 

[Karl Masks]

Litres of freshwater used is a very misleading stat. For milk in the UK, most of that water will be green water. For almonds (which nearly all come from California), most of the water will be blue water. In reality, their relative impact wrt water usage is not as that chart suggests.

That they are willing to be misleading in that stat makes me think all the other stats need investigating too.

There is also the question of the various milks' relative nutritional values. Cow's milk contains more nutrition per litre than almond milk, and by just concentrating on the quantity in litres, you're missing that aspect. Cow's milk is complete protein, for example, while almond milk is not. Cow's milk also contains lots of B vitamins, including of course B12.

Water, Hulled SOYA beans (8.7%), Apple extract, Acidity regulators (Monopotassium phosphate, Dipotassium phosphate), Calcium (Calcium carbonate), Sea salt, Stabiliser (Gellan gum), Vitamins (Riboflavin (B2), B12, D2). (this is Alpro soymilk).
Hardly soy milk when only 8% is actually soy. At best it's just fortified water. Are there no tbetter sources for those vitamins?

 

[Funky_monks]

I think I once went back and counted how many times Ed had used P&N, claiming it to be from "different sources" just because it was a different website using the data and it was in double figures back then - Is it deliberate?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think I once went back and counted how many times Ed had used P&N, claiming it to be from "different sources" just because it was a different website using the data and it was in double figures back then - Is it deliberate?

He has you and me on ignore now, I think. Fingers in his ears. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Are there no tbetter sources for those vitamins?

Yeah. Milk.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I like this definition of ultra-processed foods (from FM's link):

industrial food and drink formulations made of food-derived substances and additives, often containing little or no whole foods.

'food-derived substances'

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'm not a puritan. I'm not entirely against UPFs. I eat junk food sometimes. It's tasty!

But these are UPFs that are being cynically and falsely marketed as health foods.

And looking up Alpro, they're all too typical of their genre. A company that 'that markets organic and non-organic, non-genetically modified,[5][6] plant-based products, such as foods and drinks made from soy, almonds, hazelnuts, cashew, rice, oats or coconut', but is owned by Danone, a French multinational that is big in dairy, having been bought from Dean Foods, a now-defunct company that was the biggest producer of dairy in the US.

So it's the same situation as with meat-substitutes. It's the big corporations with the worst farming practices that own these 'heath-food' non-dairy companies. They're part of the problem.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Editor, ever get the feeling you've been had?

 

[Funky_monks]

I'm not a puritan. I'm not entirely against UPFs. I eat junk food sometimes. It's tasty!

But these are UPFs that are being cynically and falsely marketed as health foods.

And looking up Alpro, they're all too typical of their genre. A company that 'that markets organic and non-organic, non-genetically modified,[5][6] plant-based products, such as foods and drinks made from soy, almonds, hazelnuts, cashew, rice, oats or coconut', but is owned by Danone, a French multinational that is big in dairy, having been bought from Dean Foods, a now-defunct company that was the biggest producer of dairy in the US.

So it's the same situation as with meat-substitutes. It's the big corporations with the worst farming practices that own these 'heath-food' non-dairy companies. They're part of the problem.

So do I, but I'm not trying to pretend they are healthy either.

Its that silly little green "plant" logo on them, such genus marketing for such unhealthy shite.

Odd that its not considered left wing round here to want everyone to have access to wholesome, minimally processed nutritious food.....

 

[oxygenthief]

Big Snip, this was the end of a much longer post.

I can remember seeing a really interesting programme with Ray Mears and some kind of ethnobotanist bloke, who pointed out things like the fact that the flag iris has a highly edible, big tuber. Flag Irises are everywhere along waterways in Europe - I can't imagine pre-agrarian Europeans didn't know that there was a readily available, highly digestible energy source there.

I wonder if they were actually talking about reed mace, aka cattails (Typha latifolia), iirc flag iris root is actually poisonous.

 

[CNT36]

Anyone fancy Python for tea?

Large pythons are better at converting their food into edible protein than many other farmed animals, including chickens, pigs, cows, salmon and crickets. Reticulated pythons (Malayopython reticulatus) and Burmese pythons (Python bivittatus) on farms could fast for months without losing much weight, which could help to ensure food security during economic or climatic disruptions, says herpetologist and study co-author Dan Natusch. “Farming pythons could be a big part of the solution for a part of the world that is already suffering from severe protein deficiency.” Python farming is well established in Asia and the meat is “pretty tasty and versatile”, Natusch adds. Detailed analyses of python farms’ environmental impact and of the meat’s nutritional content are now needed, says food systems scientist Monika Zurek.

 

[editor]

Water, Hulled SOYA beans (8.7%), Apple extract, Acidity regulators (Monopotassium phosphate, Dipotassium phosphate), Calcium (Calcium carbonate), Sea salt, Stabiliser (Gellan gum), Vitamins (Riboflavin (B2), B12, D2). (this is Alpro soymilk).
Hardly soy milk when only 8% is actually soy. At best it's just fortified water. Are there no tbetter sources for those vitamins?

Are you being wilfully stupid here? What do you think milk is made of?

Skim milk is approximately 91% water and 9% solids. The solids in skim milk are composed of proteins, carbohydrates (primarily lactose), and a small amount of fat. The fat content in skim milk is very low, typically less than 0.5%, which is why it's referred to as "skim" milk.

Whole cow's milk contains about 87% water. The remaining 13% contains protein, fat, carbohydrates, vitamins, and minerals. Processing techniques remove fat to produce lower fat varieties: “reduced fat” contains 2% milkfat, “lowfat” contains 1% milkfat, and “nonfat” or “skim” has virtually no milkfat.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

However, it is ultra-processed food, in which food-derived substances are combined with additives such as vitamins synthesised in a lab using industrial processes. Made mostly by big multinational corporations that also involve themselves in some of the worst farming practices on the planet, it is a synthetic replacement for a highly nutritious whole food.

Just to be clear about what it is that you're advocating here.

Drink non-dairy milks by all means. But don't pretend you're saving the planet by doing so. You're not.

 

[editor]

Hmm, who to listen to? The groups of experts assembled by the United Nations or some zero qualified people posting under fake names on an internet forum?

Emerging novel alternatives to animal products such as meat and dairy may contribute to significantly reducing the environmental footprint of the current global food system, particularly in high- and middle-income countries, provided they use low-carbon energy. This is a key finding of a new UN Environment Programme (UNEP) assessment of such new alternatives to animal agriculture, a sector accounting for up to a fifth of planet-warming emissions, with meat consumption slated to grow by 50 per cent by 2050.

Novel meat and dairy alternatives could help curb climate-harming emissions - UN

Dubai, 8 December 2023 – Emerging novel alternatives to animal products such as meat and dairy may contribute to significantly reducing the environmental footprint of the current global food system, particularly in high- and middle-income countries, provided they use low-carbon energy. This is a...

www.unep.org