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British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

This is one of those subjects where parts of the left show themselves up as being completely out of touch with what the general public think. And it fucking pisses me off. Because for every economic argument you can convince people of they are repelled by this kind of bullshit by folk who would do better keeping their mouths shut.
 
Magnus McGinty said:
This is one of those subjects where parts of the left show themselves up as being completely out of touch with what the general public think. And it fucking pisses me off. Because for every economic argument you can convince people of they are repelled by this kind of bullshit by folk who would do better keeping their mouths shut.
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do you think what you do because of or despite what the general public think?
 
Magnus McGinty said:
This is one of those subjects where parts of the left show themselves up as being completely out of touch with what the general public think. And it fucking pisses me off. Because for every economic argument you can convince people of they are repelled by this kind of bullshit by folk who would do better keeping their mouths shut.
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I don't think many of the general public read u75. Didn't realise we had to be on best behaviour in case one of them dropped in.
 
Today's arguments at the hearing were interesting. Her lawyers said the HS failed to take into account the fact that his decision would make her de facto stateless, arguing that he should have asked Bangladesh how they'd treat her before deciding. The government's lawyers replied that an obligation to consult with the countries of dual nationals would effectively make the deprivation regime unworkable, since they could frustrate it simply by saying they'd not recognise the individual as a citizen (regardless of their laws).
 
bimble said:
this is a really good link well found.
It shows the basic idea and the law is that your citizenship can be revoked if "your presence in the Uk is not deemed conducive to the public good".
That is just grotesquely broad.
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Yes, you'd have though that, at the very least, it'd be couched in the more familiar categories of national security, public health, prevention of serious crime etc. Even as someone who doesn't like the principle, I'd like to see that improvement. Also, I'd like to see the decision made by a group of politically independent judges.
 
Athos said:
Today's arguments at the hearing were interesting. Her lawyers said the HS failed to take into account the fact that his decision would make her de facto stateless, arguing that he should have asked Bangladesh how they'd treat her before deciding. The government's lawyers replied that an obligation to consult with the countries of dual nationals would effectively make the deprivation regime unworkable, since they could frustrate it simply by saying they'd not recognise the individual as a citizen (regardless of their laws).
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Is there a decent summary of today’s proceedings somewhere?
 
bimble said:
'Conducive to the public good' is a ridiculously high & arbitrary bar. Why not chuck out Nigel Farage, he's got a german passport hasn't he.
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There is some guidance, but the last category is so wide as to make it virtually carte blanche (subject to the usual limits on the exercise of public powers e.g. reasonableness, procedural fairness).

55.4.4 “Conduciveness to the Public Good” means depriving in the public interest on the grounds of involvement in terrorism, espionage, serious organised crime, war crimes or unacceptable behaviours.

I suppose that, for now at least, the HRA provides some limit to the discretion as a deprivation decision will amount to a prima facie breach of Art 8 right to private life, such that the deprivation must be a proportionate way of achieving the legitimate aims listed therein e.g. national security, health, crime.
 
Athos said:
There is some guidance, but the last category is so wide as to make it virtually carte blanche (subject to the usual limits on the exercise of public powers).

55.4.4 “Conduciveness to the Public Good” means depriving in the public interest on the grounds of involvement in terrorism, espionage, serious organised crime, war crimes or unacceptable behaviours.

I suppose that, for now at least, the HRA provides some limit to the discretion as a deprivation decision will amount to a prima facie breach of Art 8 right to private life, such that the deprivation must be a proportionate way of achieving the legitimate aims listed therein e.g. national security, health, crime.
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I don't care at all about Shamima but this does seem extremely shit:
"unacceptable behaviours" can get you de-citizened ? Who are the people that write these laws & who gets to use them.
 
bimble said:
I don't care at all about Shamima but this does seem extremely shit:
"unacceptable behaviours" can get you de-citizened ? Who are the people that write these laws & who gets to use them.
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Yeah, though the discretion is fettered a bit by HR laws. And, as far as I know (and putting aside the issue of sufficiency of evidence) it's only been used for significant issues like terrorism and very serious crime, rather than trivial ones.
 
Athos said:
Yeah, though the discretion is fettered a bit by HR laws. And, as far as I know (and putting aside the issue of sufficiency of evidence) it's only been used for significant issues like terrorism and very serious crime, rather than trivial ones.
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This is why I don’t think it’s worth getting worked-up about it. People suggest that it’s a power that could be abused but I asked on here months ago if anyone could come up with a single example of that happening to a non-terrorist and so far nobody has.
 
Spymaster said:
This is why I don’t think it’s worth getting worked-up about it. People suggest that it’s a power that could be abused but I asked on here months ago if anyone could come up with a single example of that happening to a non-terrorist and so far nobody has.
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Rochdale rapists.
 
Spymaster said:
This is why I don’t think it’s worth getting worked-up about it. People suggest that it’s a power that could be abused but I asked on here months ago if anyone could come up with a single example of that happening to a non-terrorist and so far nobody has.
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I'm not worked up, I just think its shitty law and ethically shameful for a rich country to be doing this, chucking its problem citizens away for others to deal with. Will be ensuring also that as a dual citizen i don't do any behaviours that the current home secretary might deem 'unacceptable' just to be safe.
 
Spymaster said:
This is why I don’t think it’s worth getting worked-up about it. People suggest that it’s a power that could be abused but I asked on here months ago if anyone could come up with a single example of that happening and so far nobody has.
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It's been used against nonces.

But, we don't know what we don't know. The evidence and reasoning isn't usually made public or even made known to the subject (for understandable reasons) so it's hard to assess if it's always been used fairly. Especially since in many cases those on the receiving end have found it logistically impossible to mount a legal challenge. But you have to accept that leaving it to a politician rather than a court does increase the risk of it being used for political gain rather than in proper grounds.
 
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Athos said:
Today's arguments at the hearing were interesting. Her lawyers said the HS failed to take into account the fact that his decision would make her de facto stateless, arguing that he should have asked Bangladesh how they'd treat her before deciding. The government's lawyers replied that an obligation to consult with the countries of dual nationals would effectively make the deprivation regime unworkable, since they could frustrate it simply by saying they'd not recognise the individual as a citizen (regardless of their laws).
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Afaik they are going with the line that has been mooted here too; Bangladesh has vowed to hang her if she sets foot in the country, therefore removing her British citizenship and forcing her to take up her Bangladeshi one is counter to our commitments to the European Council.
 
bimble said:
I'm not worked up, I just think its shitty law and ethically shameful for a rich country to be doing this, chucking its problem citizens away for others to deal with. Will be ensuring also that as a dual citizen i don't do any behaviours that the current home secretary might deem 'unacceptable' just to be safe.
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You can still do those things; just gotta renounced your other citizenship.
 
Bahnhof Strasse said:
Afaik they are going with the line that has been mooted here too; Bangladesh has vowed to hang her if she sets foot in the country, therefore removing her British citizenship and forcing her to take up her Bangladeshi one is counter to our commitments to the European Council.
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Not exactly, but near enough to the thrust of it.
 
bimble said:
exactly! Load of bollocks to have two sets of punishments one for me and one for a true Brit.
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Yeah. Although, without getting too philosophical, all nationality law is discriminatory, and most of it is arbitrary. Why are some people criminals for doing something that's lawful elsewhere, purely by an accident of birth?!
 
Athos said:
Yeah. Although, without getting too philosophical, all nationality law is discriminatory, and most of it is arbitrary. Why are some people criminals for doing something that's lawful elsewhere, purely by an accident of birth?!
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well, yes. everything shamima did was fine in the caliphate etc but that’s not the point is it.
 
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