Brexit or Bremain - Urban votes

[Pickman's model]

we have got rid of that unelected body before...

 

[eoin_k]

EU commissioners are not elected.

The pertinence of this post became much clearer when I clicked on 'show ignored content'. What a muppet.

 

[discokermit]

we have got rid of that unelected body before...

''get a hat on the head, win a goldfish!''

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

The pertinence of this post became much clearer when I clicked on 'show ignored content'. What a muppet.

Who the fuck are you? Have we ever spoken?

 

[Fozzie Bear]

For the record, I am now veering from Leave to Abstain, like the indecisive wanker I surely am.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

For the record, I am now veering from Leave to Abstain, like the indecisive wanker I surely am.

How come?

 

[two sheds]

Don't waste your vote - this is a precious once in a generation opportunity.

Spoil the ballot

 

[weltweit]

For the record, I am now veering from Leave to Abstain, like the indecisive wanker I surely am.

Any specific reason?

 

[Fozzie Bear]

How come?

Well basically the failure of the left (me included) to mount a cohesive Lexit campaign. It's become a referendum on immigration, essentially.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Well basically the failure of the left (me included) to mount a cohesive Lexit campaign. It's become a referendum on immigration, essentially.

I'm not sure I follow. What are the reasons you think we would be better inside the EU than out?

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I'm not sure I follow. What are the reasons you think we would be better inside the EU than out?

I am not voting to stay in the EU, so I'm not sure why you are asking me that.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I am not voting to stay in the EU, so I'm not sure why you are asking me that.

Well to abstain is to say you aren't too bothered if we stay or not. I'll rephrase the question. Why do you think that staying in the EU is no different from leaving? What has changed your mind from thinking we would be better off out?

 

[Treacle Toes]

Well to abstain is to say you aren't too bothered if we stay or not. I'll rephrase the question. Why do you think that staying in the EU is no different from leaving? What has changed your mind from thinking we would be better off out?

You have misunderstood his post, completely.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

You have misunderstood his post, completely.

Maybe so. From what I gather he was voting out but now is abstaining. Have I got that wrong?

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I am not voting to stay in the EU, so I'm not sure why you are asking me that.

The cohesive Lexit plan doesn't need a deadline. It's clear things are going nowhere on that front- but when/if we ever stop screaming WHATS YOUR PLAN across the fence, at that point I'd say taking on the govt has more precedent than reforming the EU.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I think that the EU is anti-democratic, corrupt and unreformable. I think its trajectory is veering away from any kind of social progressive values into overt neoliberalism.

However the Leave campaign has focussed almost completely on a jingoistic attack on foreigners, immigrants etc. A victory for Leave would be a victory for that.

Both options on the ballot are bad options. So bollocks to it.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

The cohesive Lexit plan doesn't need a deadline. It's clear things are going nowhere on that front- but when/if we ever stop screaming WHATS YOUR PLAN across the fence, at that point I'd say taking on the govt has more precedent than reforming the EU.

I think it's been a missed opportunity but perhaps it was optimistic of me to think anything else would happen.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I think that the EU is anti-democratic, corrupt and unreformable. I think its trajectory is veering away from any kind of social progressive values into overt neoliberalism.

However the Leave campaign has focussed almost completely on a jingoistic attack on foreigners, immigrants etc. A victory for Leave would be a victory for that.

Both options on the ballot are bad options. So bollocks to it.

Either option would be "a victory" for cunty forces. I still think it's important to be practical, prepare the ground for a time when the working class are a bit more up for action. On a personal note my situation couldn't get much worse and hasn't improved since my mum, like me was a single mum in the 80's. If it's a 25 year fight, bring it. Having said that I'll be voting leave with a sickly tummy on Thursday

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

A victory for Leave would be a victory for that.

I guess this is the crux of my disagreement with many remain/abstainers. I don't care what other exiters have as their reasons because, in or out, the Tories still have a tiny majority (and now a split party).

Leaving will not empower the right as some have argued, because there is no feasible mechanism through which power can be exercised at this stage. They are weak. We will see nothing but deadlock for the tories in the next few years, whatever the result of the referendum.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I think it's been a missed opportunity but perhaps it was optimistic of me to think anything else would happen.

Agreed, it really was.

 

[YouSir]

I think that the EU is anti-democratic, corrupt and unreformable. I think its trajectory is veering away from any kind of social progressive values into overt neoliberalism.

However the Leave campaign has focussed almost completely on a jingoistic attack on foreigners, immigrants etc. A victory for Leave would be a victory for that.

Both options on the ballot are bad options. So bollocks to it.

So you're not voting on your own opinions so much as how loud other people have been about theirs?

Not talking about you personally but a fair few on the left seem to have abandoned their own beliefs just because the right have theirs. Really dismal capitulation.

 

[hot air baboon]

However the Leave campaign has focussed almost completely on a jingoistic attack on foreigners, immigrants etc.

...it was always on the cards ....as was that Remain would end up the sort of squalid campaign of threats and blackmail that'd make Ronnie & Reggie blush with shame....

 

[Wilf]

I think that the EU is anti-democratic, corrupt and unreformable. I think its trajectory is veering away from any kind of social progressive values into overt neoliberalism.

However the Leave campaign has focussed almost completely on a jingoistic attack on foreigners, immigrants etc. A victory for Leave would be a victory for that.

Both options on the ballot are bad options. So bollocks to it.

That's about it for me as well. If I could convince myself that there would be some kind of opportunity for working class politics in amongst a leave victory, I'd hold my nose against the stink of farage and vote for it. Trouble is, I can't. A leave victory might open things up, create some kind of 'progressive' opportunity, but to be honest, the opposite is at least as likely. But that doesn't push me into the arms of remain neoliberalism, so the only honest thing I can do is abstain.

 

[DotCommunist]

...it was always on the cards ....as was that Remain would end up the sort of squalid campaign of threats and blackmail that'd make Ronnie & Reggie blush with shame....

todays sun headline and story is fucked up. I mean they've always been mendacious shits who hate immigrants only slightly more than they hate the working class but todays was a 'classic' of the genre

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Either option would be "a victory" for cunty forces. I still think it's important to be practical, prepare the ground for a time when the working class are a bit more up for action. On a personal note my situation couldn't get much worse and hasn't improved since my mum, like me was a single mum in the 80's. If it's a 25 year fight, bring it. Having said that I'll be voting leave with a sickly tummy on Thursday

Yeah that all makes perfect sense...

 

[Fozzie Bear]

So you're not voting on your own opinions so much as how loud other people have been about theirs?

Not talking about you personally but a fair few on the left seem to have abandoned their own beliefs just because the right have theirs. Really dismal capitulation.

I think this is an instance where people's opinions don't exist in a vacuum. The wider context is important. The terrain has shifted since the beginning of the campaign. It hasn't shifted in a progressive direction and if progressives are losing ground now that will only intensify after a Leave victory.

It won't be much of a consolation prize to be able to say "Oh no I voted for the nice Brexit, not the racist Brexit".

 

[Wilf]

I guess this is the crux of my disagreement with many remain/abstainers. I don't care what other exiters have as their reasons because, in or out, the Tories still have a tiny majority (and now a split party).

Leaving will not empower the right as some have argued, because there is no feasible mechanism through which power can be exercised at this stage. They are weak. We will see nothing but deadlock for the tories in the next few years, whatever the result of the referendum.

The Tories have their usual divide over Europe, brought to the boil obviously over the referendum ... and yes, you are right, probably won't be settled by the result. But if you want to think about it in terms of parliamentary forces, the left/social democracy doesn't even have a party. Labour has been the cutting edge of neoliberalism for a couple of decades and hasn't been restored to a social democratic position by corbyn (he's a social democrat obviously and most of the members probably are, but as a functioning party Labour is still fighting internal battles and is nowhere near having been returned to a managed/kinder capitalism). IN terms of the ticklist of things needed to win elections the Tories have plenty more ticks than Labour.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I voted for a cosey feeling inside.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I guess this is the crux of my disagreement with many remain/abstainers. I don't care what other exiters have as their reasons because, in or out, the Tories still have a tiny majority (and now a split party).

Leaving will not empower the right as some have argued, because there is no feasible mechanism through which power can be exercised at this stage. They are weak. We will see nothing but deadlock for the tories in the next few years, whatever the result of the referendum.

One possibility is a successful Leave campaign, on the terms of the right, will be a huge boost for the right wing in general. We know that because of first past the post that splits in major parties are incredibly unlikely. So it is possible that the various factions will continue to hold their noses and unite to shaft the rest of us with their newfound independence. Which is ultimately their plan whether we leave or stay.

Paul Mason saying we should vote Remain and then unite behind Jeremy Corbyn is la-la land.

 

[inva]

I think this is an instance where people's opinions don't exist in a vacuum. The wider context is important. The terrain has shifted since the beginning of the campaign. It hasn't shifted in a progressive direction and if progressives are losing ground now that will only intensify after a Leave victory.

It won't be much of a consolation prize to be able to say "Oh no I voted for the nice Brexit, not the racist Brexit".

has the terrain shifted? I wasn't aware of progressive voices having any prominence at any point...