Brexit or Bremain - Urban votes

[JuanTwoThree]

I'm happy that the "non-revolutionary left" aka reformists aka capitalist apologists don't feel guilty about voting to remain in a supra-state capitalist trade block.

The purity of the idea is admirable but in the context of my living in a country that has a ruling party, for the moment, which is the direct heir to a fascist dictatorship, if you don't mind I'll take "reformists and capitalist apologists" over that.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I'd also like to see a return to the pre-Thatcher post-war social contract: 0 to 4% unemployment for 30 years....

And yet your voting remain?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[two sheds]

No I spoiled the ballot.

 

[brogdale]

Capital doesn't appear to be split tbf. Capital is remain all the way - that there's some individual capitalist who've seen 'opportunities' in leave is a different matter.

I'd imagine that the views of global capital, Asian capital, US capital etc. might have a greater variety of positions than we might be informed about. On the most basic level, the very fact that fincap has permitted the right party of capital to offer this 'choice' to the electorate might suggest the perception that they could work with either outcome.

 

[belboid]

I'd imagine that the views of global capital, Asian capital, US capital etc. might have a greater variety of positions than we might be informed about. On the most basic level, the very fact that fincap has permitted the right party of capital to offer this 'choice' to the electorate might suggest the perception that they could work with either outcome.

no evidence to support that guess tho. those that have come out have been solidly remain

 

[The39thStep]

Blimey , Mayday/platypus/ autonomous Class War/autonomous NE anti fascists are still with us , at least in spirit.

@Mayday_magazine: @GibbensBilly @PlebLand @SGillLondonUK @PeterTatchell @guardian No i'm not, I'm more a 3rd positionist - whoever u vote for capitalists win.

 

[redsquirrel]

Mason's article seems to be there primarily to promote his apparent belief that the working class isn't the best judge of its own interests.

Edit: it's completely a response to Harris's infinitely better article.

These days Harris, along with Younge, is the best political commentator the Guardian has.

 

[coley]

True.

But if we leave we can get rid of those "bedfellows" at the next GE, if we remain we are stuck with the bedlice forever, and have no doubt, if we remain, the tiny concessions that Cameron has seemingly wrung from the rest of the EU will be struck down in legal challenges within months.
Followed by other pressures for us to 'fall in line'

 

[coley]

that is what is really annoying me, prominent business leaders all say you should do X and they know what is best for you, this nasty person is voting Y so you shouldn't vote that way because then you'll be supporting a nasty person

apparently Baroness Warsi has switched sides over a poster - I don't really understand why a poster is relevant to the actual issues, it is surely just an unfortunate symptom of having some arseholes supporting one particular side, switching sides over a non issue like that just seems ridiculous, if you actually believe in your position the fact that some arseholes will also vote to support it (albeit for very different reasons) shouldn't be reason to change

Baroness Warsi is an unelected nonentity closely allied to to Cameron & cronies, nobody ever really believed her 'leave' credentials, hopefully (amongst the remainders) her defection was supposed to come as hand grenade amongst the leave camp, more of a damp squib.

 

[coley]

Small lot of pro-nazis and a lot of smug liberals. will that do?

And the odd wandering individuals, totally in the dark

 

[coley]

I watched Cameron's session on QT this morning, still amazed to find people in the audience who are don't knows, this late in the game I would have thought people would at least have a leaning in or out.

If I had a smidgin of doubt Cameron's performance would have eliminated it,
Out, bliddy out!

 

[coley]

Ouch, don't do that !! Leave is the disruptors option, there will be a hullabaloo and much gnashing of teeth if Britain votes leave !! Is the status quo so very bad?

Yes, next question?

 

[Dowie]

How come you always use hyperbole as a first rather than a last resort.

I don't blame it on your politics, by the way. I blame it on your proven inability to actually engage in reasoned debate with anyone who doesn't agree with you.

No I'm just not willing to engage in a wider debate on the general topic with a particular poster, the point I made in this thread doesn't depend on my views on the issues surrounding brexit or whether I'm for or against.

 

[coley]

In my life time the post 'post-war settlement' status quo, has seen a shift from labour to capital which has hurt the provision of housing, health care, access to the law, workers rights, income distribution and progressive taxation (to name a few areas...other people please feel free to add your own).

So the status quo, which the EU was designed and continues to defend and promote, is bad and promises worse. It is not the saviour of refugees, the protector of women's right and the champion of organised labour that some on the remain side would have us believe.

Opposing it can be the pro-working class, internationalist and humanitarian thing to do; where as it is very hard to see how support for the pro-capital, building fortress Europe EU could ever be.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

Nice one, succinctly stated.

 

[coley]

The NHS is excellent, why would you put it down? As to workers rights, the social chapter, paid holidays, parental leave, working time etc have come out of the EU, how much of that would a UK tory party have brought to the commons? .. not much or none at all would be my bet. And a UK tory party is what we are looking at, emboldened if they get a leave vote to tear up the "red tape" which they so fondly name workers rights.


More tory years, the likelihood of a Scottish vote to leave with all that means for reduced non tory MPs in Westminster, I see an ugly tory future which I am pretty sure neither you nor I want.
On refugees, Germany took a lot of refugees, it is the tories that are dragging their feet, but we have inward immigration and outward, we are not cut off from the world.


Do you think there will be more or less UK jobs after a leave vote?

Most of the WC rights were won by the workers not the soddin EU,
I see a UK after Brexit where the WC can shaft the Tories and regain a voice in UK politics.

 

[coley]

No argument with that except to add that concerted effort across the EU stands a chance of benefitting more people than just UK actions.

What "concerted effort"? remember the French burning our lamb exports? The French WC look after themselves,

 

[coley]

I just don't want to queue in the non-EU passport lanes when I fly from the UK to other European airports.

Personally? It would be a small price to pay in order to be rid of their destructive federalist ambitions.

 

[coley]

I actually think Urban is holding up quite well. We haven't been astro turfed - there is independent thought here. Compare it with facebook where discourse seems limited to sharing someone elses postcard of idea and then largely ignoring the responses (usually the people whom disagree explaining why)

Actually surprised you do FB.

 

[gosub]

Actually surprised you do FB.

How else do you remember birthdays?

 

[coley]

Who's Martin fletcher?

 

[coley]

Am only halfway through this thread so apologies if this has been addressed but this is just horseshit and seems to be everywhere. It's horseshit fot two reasons, firstly the claim that a Johnson/Gove/Farage? take over is inevitable in the case of Brexit, and secondly that this is impossible - or that the EU will save us from it - in the case of Remain.

Fuck the clowns, look at who you're lining up with - Cameron, Blair, the IMF, Obama, the EU themselves, architects of neoliberalism, fortress Europe and racist war. You seriously believe that Cameron and Osborne are better than Boris and Gove? They are the same, cut from the same cloth, with the same aims and beliefs. Only difference is that Cameron/New Labour/US/EU/IMF alliance has better PR and more power. Gove, Boris and Farage, bring them fucking on, they look more beatable than the current set up.

Spot on, thank you, you bunch of buggers now depart.

 

[coley]

How else do you remember birthdays?

I don't

 

[coley]

Confucius say Cameron may well resign if its a Brexit - hmmm

Hmm, I would prefer Hari Kari,
No, I jest, he has a family after all.

 

[8den]

Who's Martin fletcher?

Former times Foreign Editor.

 

[coley]

Yes, we wouldn't want to do anything to upset the market(s) would we.

Mind you, at least there's no pretence in this line, all power the market, liberalism clear for all to see. The same liberalism that is currently attacking workers and hitting the welfare state.

The only market the UK remain camp is interested in is the financial markets, look at the way these bastards (oops our elected government) has allowed our heavy manufacturing to go to the wall, yet no information on TIPPs or the agreements on financial services brokered with the Chinese has seen the light of day.
I am sick of being patronised by billionaires and their political lapdogs.
Vote out, and bite the lapdogs where it hurts, in their pockets, they lost their balls in 75!

 

[coley]

Projected votes in Manchester show the three most wealthiest boroughs will vote Remain , the poorest Exit
EU poll: How will Greater Manchester vote in the referendum?

Whey, given Tory policies over the last few years, we will voting out

 

[Lurdan]

In normal elections I'm an abstentionist because I have every confidence in the ability of our ruling class to rearrange the deckchairs without any complicity from me. I don't myself spoil my ballot or vote spunking cock because I don't see inversion as rejection, but whatever.

This referendum of course is not like an election. Rather than a choice between left Twix or right Twix we are presented with the prospect, whoever 'wins', of having the full Mars Bar thrust up us. Perhaps if we are are lucky they will have reduced the size again "to take account of concerns about obesity".

So on Thursday morning I will not be abstaining.

Instead I intend to take a crap. While I am fully aware that it's likely to be the only chance I will have in my lifetime to have a crap on that particular morning, it seems a little pointless to shout "up yours brussels" as I let fly, since I have no intention of eating any the night before. I shall break with my customary practise and spoil my toilet paper.

Although I think we're coming from slightly different places I think Bahnhof Strasse has it exactly right

FUCK SHIT UP

I don't see the outcome of this farrago as making it any more or less likely, or any more or less possible, for that to happen.

 

[skyscraper101]

Breaking news....

David Beckham backs Remain

 

[brogdale]

Breaking news....

David Beckham backs Remain

Front of Guardian site...

 

[skyscraper101]

But what does Gary Neville think?