Brexit - impact on musicians, touring and the music/events industry

[editor]

Here's what industry mag Music Week thinks of Brexit. I'm sure some here will insist they know better.

Brexit is a reality and we have to deal with it as best we can. Its highest impact is felt by live industries, who are seeing crippling levels of bureaucracy, compliance, new taxation, and employment rules. That is a Brexit disaster the government can’t do anything to mitigate because they chose this path. But it is truly astonishing that they won’t do any of the things that Brexit was, ultimately, supposed to be about – things that might help to ameliorate the problems that Brexit caused.

The choice is clear: the government can cut VAT on concert tickets to 5%. Or they can stop pretending that they have any intention of supporting the creative industries, or of making Brexit work for us.

Music Venue Trust's Mark Davyd urges VAT cut: 'Grassroots venues are the R&D of the industry'

Music Venue Trust CEO Mark Davyd says that Nadine Dorries is the first Culture Secretary to decline a meeting since 2014. With the Treasury set to bring VAT on concert tickets back up to 20% at the end of the month, here he makes an urgent appeal to the government to protect the grassroots sector…

www.musicweek.com

 

[Steel Icarus]

So what can be done about it? What are musicians doing about it?

 

[rutabowa]

A. I'm always keen to hear about possible pitfalls. I like to be prepared, even if it is only mentally (for the worst case)
B. I don't 100% care about what caused the delay, but brexit is here and this happened to touring musicians while brexit was in place. Ignoring it isn't useful.
Nothing that came after that comment was useful.

What practical stuff did you learn from the story then? I didn't get anything apart from "vans can get delayed crossing the channel" and "brexit is bad"; the first is so non-specific that it is useless, and the second is no practical use either.

I want to know specifics, not just "it is terrible".

 

[ska invita]

So what can be done about it? What are musicians doing about it?

the musician union campaigned about all this directly months if not years before brexit kicked in - the government were well aware of the impact
if you remember the EU offered an exemption for musicians as the MU had asked - the Tories refused it on some kind of 'principle'
so to answer your question, musicians can unionise and campaign, but ultimately bang their heads against the ideology of the swivel eyed headbangers who run our country

 

[editor]

So what can be done about it? What are musicians doing about it?

What do you expect them to do over and above what's been tried so far?

 

[Steel Icarus]

What do you expect them to do over and above what's been tried so far?

Dunno, I was asking what's been done/possible to be done as I don't know

 

[editor]

Dunno, I was asking what's been done/possible to be done as I don't know

There's been huge amounts of discussion in this thread inbetween all the time wasting denial nonsense.

 

[rutabowa]

Dunno, I was asking what's been done/possible to be done as I don't know

It depends what exact issue you're talking about.

E.g. if importing merch is issue, a solution might be getting merch printed in the EU, possibly.

There will no doubt be better and worse ways of dealing with the new unfamiliar processes, which will only be learnt as bands actually do it, make mistakes, and adjust. That is what I was hoping to find out here.

Until you get down to specifics, it is all just breeze

 

[nogojones]

What are musicians doing about it?

Playing the blues?

 

[editor]

It depends what exact issue you're talking about.

E.g. if importing merch is issue, a solution might be getting merch printed in the EU, possibly.

It's a risky strategy though: if you're getting your merch printed up in each country on a European tour, the financial success of the tour could depend on the goods being decent quality/arriving in time/being sent to the right location/selling out in that country (or you'll be stuck with extra goods causing more red tape further along the tour).

And of course, it would be just about impossible to get CDs/vinyl/record sleeve packaging pressed/published in every country to such a tight budget/timescale - and that's where the real money is for a load of bands.

 

[rutabowa]

It was just to illustrate that "what is to be done" is not any one single thing, it is a vast amount of specific things to deal with different issues that may or may not apply to your specific circumstances.

And to work out these specific solutions, you need to identify the very specific problems; not just generalise "brexit has ruined everything" or whatever.

 

[editor]

It was just to illustrate that "what is to be done" is not any one single thing, it is a vast amount of specific things to deal with different issues that may or may not apply to your specific circumstances.

And to work out these specific solutions, you need to identify the very specific problems; not just generalise "brexit has ruined everything" or whatever.

Brexit has pretty much fucked the practicalities of selling merch in Europe for small bands.

Given that for many/most small bands, selling merch is the difference between possibly breaking even on a tour or losing shitloads of money, it's fair to say that Brexit has made touring an unrealistic proposition for many. And that's before you get to all the extra expense and time taken up with carnet/visa/customs red tape.

 

[rutabowa]

Actually I've changed my mind, could everyone in the thread just quickly summarise what their views on brexit are? I'm not quite clear who was for it or against, I think it might be a worthwhile discussion.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

What practical stuff did you learn from the story then? I didn't get anything apart from "vans can get delayed crossing the channel" and "brexit is bad"; the first is so non-specific that it is useless, and the second is no practical use either.

I want to know specifics, not just "it is terrible".

Oh god are you going to take this off at another tangent? I have already said what I got out of it. It's simply anecdotal evidence of the possibility of equipment being held up at boarder control long enough for a gig to be missed. I would be equally happy to hear about bands taking their equipment in a car, proclaiming they are in a band playing a gig in France and getting waved right through without any bother.

I don't like 'unknown' elements, especially when traveling. Heck, unlike you I can't even take a guitar as a carry on for fear someone will not let me (as they are allowed to). . . I have read all the rules, I have seen with my own eyes that it is possible, I have read horror stories of guitars being taken into the hold and broken.

The more stories I hear the better. Arguments about what is and isn't brexit's 'direct' fault isn't helpful, but the reality is that we are living in a post brexit world and that's all this thread is about isn't it?
Arguing about what information I am allowed to find useful probably isn't helpful either.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

There will no doubt be better and worse ways of dealing with the new unfamiliar processes, which will only be learnt as bands actually do it, make mistakes, and adjust. That is what I was hoping to find out here.

. . . this for instance.

 

[DaphneM]

Brexit has pretty much fucked the practicalities of selling merch in Europe for small bands.

Given that for many/most small bands, selling merch is the difference between possibly breaking even on a tour or losing shitloads of money, it's fair to say that Brexit has made touring an unrealistic proposition for many. And that's before you get to all the extra expense and time taken up with carnet/visa/customs red tape.

I would imagine it’s cut down on the tax fraud from not paying tax on the merch sold though?

 

[rutabowa]

I'll leave you to it then

 

[editor]

I would imagine it’s cut down on the tax fraud from not paying tax on the merch sold though?

What 'tax fraud' is that then?

 

[editor]

Oh god are you going to take this off at another tangent? I have already said what I got out of it. It's simply anecdotal evidence of the possibility of equipment being held up at boarder control long enough for a gig to be missed. I would be equally happy to hear about bands taking their equipment in a car, proclaiming they are in a band playing a gig in France and getting waved right through without any bother.

I don't like 'unknown' elements, especially when traveling. Heck, unlike you I can't even take a guitar as a carry on for fear someone will not let me (as they are allowed to). . . I have read all the rules, I have seen with my own eyes that it is possible, I have read horror stories of guitars being taken into the hold and broken.

The more stories I hear the better. Arguments about what is and isn't brexit's 'direct' fault isn't helpful, but the reality is that we are living in a post brexit world and that's all this thread is about isn't it?
Arguing about what information I am allowed to find useful probably isn't helpful either.

I toured Europe before the UK joined the EU and the carnet was a fucking pain in the arse. We got held up at the German/Austrian border, had to take all our gear out for inspection and ended up hours late for our show.

 

[editor]

Here's more details on how Brexit fucked up that band's show in Paris:

Just last week, White Lies were forced to cancel the opening night of their 2022 European tour in Paris due to “Brexit legislation” seeing their equipment held up for two days. Speaking to NME, drummer Jack Lawrence-Brown the situation as “incredibly frustrating”.

“It’s tricky for us because we’ve been doing this for quite a while and to our minds, we were pretty well-prepared for what was to come,” he said. “We’d done our best to ensure that we’d be prepared in any circumstance. It’s very frustrating when you prepare for as long as we have to then rock up to the first venue and find that your equipment has been stuck in a 25 mile-long queue on the M20 through not fault of your own, and no fault of the trucking company either.

“It wasn’t the plan that we’d worked hard to get right.”

While admitting that the confusion and delays regarding P&O Ferries hadn’t helped matters, the drummer put the majority of the blame at the foot of Brexit-related red tape regarding visas and carnets (a document detailing what goods and equipment are being taken across borders).

“Prior to Brexit, this kind of tailback was never an issue,” he said. “There’s now a huge amount of paperwork for bands to deal with if they want to get themselves into Europe. Although we had everything fully in order with our carnets stamped and everything good to go, we still found ourselves in a situation where – because of Brexit – there are these inhumane motorway queues.

“For the lovely guy who’s driving our gear around Europe for the next month, he had to sit in his cab for over a day without any services. That’s not right.”

He went on: “When you have to pull a show for something as irritating as your truck not being able to get to where it needs to be through no fault of your own, that’s money that we’ve lost as a band pretty directly through Brexit fuck-ups and essentially a lack of government control over what’s happening in Dover.”

And as I've been saying all along: Brexit has fucked things up for small bands

Lawrence-Brown went on to agree that the new rules and paperwork, creating huge costs to future live music tours of the continent – look likely to create a glass ceiling that prevents rising and developing talent from being able to afford to do so.

“It’s basically an extra hurdle which is new,” he said. “Having toured America, we’ve got experiences in dealing with carnets and more and we’re at a level where we can hand those jobs to someone else. It’s very, very complicated shit that has to be filled out for a band to go to Europe. It doesn’t really matter if you’re Coldplay or a brand new act – the paperwork that has to be filled in now is incredibly time-consuming.

“If you want to get it done properly then you have to outsource it to someone else – and that’s a cost. We’re lucky enough to be in a position to be able to pay someone to deal with our carnets for us.”

He continued: “That’s basically been brought in for any UK act that wants to do a show in France. It’s not travelling across the world, it’s just a few hours away; and you still have to fill in insane paperwork.”

UK touring bands are suffering due to "Brexit fuck-ups and a lack of government control"

White Lies, managers and politicians tell NME about the potential "nightmare" as bands return to touring Europe after Brexit and COVID

www.nme.com

 

[Steel Icarus]

Are we ever - and bear in mind we're nearly 6 years after the referendum and over two since we left the EU - remainers conceding it's the idiocy and venality of the Tories and their shitty handling of Brexit that's the problem, not the people who voted leave on a yes/no question?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Are we ever - and bear in mind we're nearly 6 years after the referendum and over two since we left the EU - remainers conceding it's the idiocy and venality of the Tories and their shitty handling of Brexit that's the problem, not the people who voted leave on a yes/no question?

The problem is that brexit was a really stupid idea, carried out in just about the worst possible way.

Maybe the likes of you chirping up that such and such band are shit isn't really very helpful.

 

[Steel Icarus]

the likes of you

question answered, I guess

 

[editor]

Are we ever - and bear in mind we're nearly 6 years after the referendum and over two since we left the EU - remainers conceding it's the idiocy and venality of the Tories and their shitty handling of Brexit that's the problem, not the people who voted leave on a yes/no question?

It was fucking obvious from the start that Brexit was going to fuck things up for bands and those problems were extremely well publicised in advance.

Together, they urge Theresa May to recognise that Brexit will “impact every aspect of the music industry. From touring to sales, to copyright legislation to royalty collation.”

UK music stars rail against Brexit in open letter to Theresa May

Celebrated musicians issue stark warning leaving EU will wreak havoc on creative sector

www.theguardian.com

This important report by the influential cross-party DCMS Select Committee is a wake-up call to the Government about the potential threat that Brexit poses.

“This includes the damage that costly and bureaucratic barriers could have on international touring and our hugely successful live music sector.

UK Music welcomes Brexit committee report as “a wake-up call” for the Government

Swift action is needed following the publication of the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee into Brexit…

www.ukmusic.org

 

[littlebabyjesus]

the likes of you

question answered, I guess

Nope. You're reading all that into it yourself. Nobody's even mentioned voters. But you said it. Your sole contribution to this thread was to say that the band was shit. Why say it? Likes of you means people saying crap like that on this thread.

You're touchy about this subject clearly.

 

[Steel Icarus]

It was fucking obvious from the start that Brexit was going to fuck things up for bands and those problems were extremely well publicised in advance.

UK music stars rail against Brexit in open letter to Theresa May

Celebrated musicians issue stark warning leaving EU will wreak havoc on creative sector

www.theguardian.com

UK Music welcomes Brexit committee report as “a wake-up call” for the Government

Swift action is needed following the publication of the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee into Brexit…

www.ukmusic.org

Those articles are from 2018. The referendum was in 2016. I don't remember on the form it saying "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union? But before you vote, have you considered the impact on touring musicians several years from now?"

I think this is obviously shit for musicians and I hope it can be sorted out, like a lot of the fuck ups of Brexit. I hate how badly managed it's all been, and I feel sympathy at the plight of touring musicians who may lose the financial ability to tour in the EU. But it's still the case that many people are lazily laying everything the Tories do at Leave voters. I didn't vote Tory.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Nope. You're reading all that into it yourself. Nobody's even mentioned voters. But you said it. Your sole contribution to this thread was to say that the band was shit. Why say it? Likes of you means people saying crap like that on this thread.

You're touchy about this subject clearly.

Not my sole contribution.
There are loads of examples on this thread alone of people sounding off about Brexit voters. My question was when are they going to stop doing that? Ok, so it was semi-rhetorical, but genuine

 

[contadino]

Those articles are from 2018. The referendum was in 2016. I don't remember on the form it saying "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union? But before you vote, have you considered the impact on touring musicians several years from now?"

I think this is obviously shit for musicians and I hope it can be sorted out, like a lot of the fuck ups of Brexit. I hate how badly managed it's all been, and I feel sympathy at the plight of touring musicians who may lose the financial ability to tour in the EU. But it's still the case that many people are lazily laying everything the Tories do at Leave voters. I didn't vote Tory.

If you voted Leave - at the behest of a load of the most extreme Tories - then you enabled this mess. Own it.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Lol

 

[Pickman's model]

If you voted Leave - at the behest of a load of the most extreme Tories - then you enabled this mess. Own it.

Pitiful. Next you'll be saying people who voted Tory in 2010 enabled the assault on Libya and therefore should share the blame for the migrant deaths in the med this has led to. Or people who voted labour enabled Iraq and Afghanistan.

Lots of people voted for brexit for lots of different reasons. But those reasons don't matter as everything that was promised by the leave campaign has melted away as Tory priorities and choices have led to a brexit bearing no relation to the relationship with Europe that was held up in 2016. Many brexits were possible. And what we have was not inevitable.