What is the future of professional music making?

[klang]

didn’t mean to band-splain. Sorry

Of course. All good!

 

[klang]

One of the best music makers I know, who made one of my favourite LPs of last year, is currently working as that bloke who sits on a cold concrete bench every day and click- counts the people walking past. Miserable. It makes me sad for him too. I hate that he has to do it.)

Nothing to do with your person, but before I started to make a bit of money off music I did some horrible jobs. I didn't mind as I didn't see them as my lot but as means to finance my hobby.
And I always had the ambition to make music as a job.

 

[story]

I'm questioning this. You can do a live performance on TikTok (which is very good at promoting live performances, if bad at paying you for them) without all the background noise and if anything more audience interaction via the chat.

A live gig at a proper venue has the advantage of visceral audience collective participation, dancing, moshing etc. But a lot of music just isn't about that. And occasionally a band will be able to envelope the audience in sound in a way that would never work over the Internet or via recorded music, but I think that's very rare. Some bands can put on a really good show, visually as well as musically. But again that's rare and probably expensive.

Sometimes the big professional high production shows can leave me cold. Too clinical, too safe.

I’ll go to see a band playing at one of the arenas but I can’t think of a single big gig I’ve enjoyed as much as the smaller ones.


Saw Goat at the Troxy last week. Great show. Left me cold.

Saw Florence and the Machine at the O2. Bored. Saw Metallica there, saw Rammstein, saw Robert Plant, etc. Nope. Just didn’t get me off.

Saw AC/DC at the O2. Meh. Saw them at The Apollo, fucking great night.
Saw Prince in a huge room… so-so. Saw him at The Apollo: bettter, but he didn’t seem to know how to work the smaller room.


The Indigo Room at the O2 is a shit venue, horrible. Bands don’t like it ever. It’s clean, neat, custom built, state of the art sound system. Meant to be a more intimate space. It’s like a fucking airport bar. Awful.

I’ve also seen a lot of shows where everything is taken very seriously. Sometimes that works but only if the musician or band is fucking incredible. Too often it all end up being po-faced and pretentious.

Gigs and live shows are living breathing amorphous reactive responsive things, made up of the band, the crew, the weather, the current culture, current events, and the audience. Being a good audience is also part of the show. Gigs and live events need to be vivid and vital.


Eta
I can imagine enjoying Beyoncé in a big room.

 

[story]

Nothing to do with your person, but before I started to make a bit of money off music I did some horrible jobs. I didn't mind as I didn't see them as my lot but as means to finance my hobby.

This one is constitutionally morose , so it hurts him in existential ways.
And he knows how good he is. And he’s getting older.

I think he doesn’t and wouldn’t and couldn’t see it as his hobby. In fact, I can imagine that if I said it to him he’d feel insulted.


On the other hand, I’ve heard others say it just as you do.



People are different to each other. Shocking.
Also, whatever gets you through the night, it’s alright.

 

[klang]

This one is constitutionally morose , so it hurts him in existential ways.
And he knows how good he is. And he’s getting older.

I think he doesn’t and wouldn’t and couldn’t see it as his hobby. In fact, I can imagine that if I said it to him he’d feel insulted.


On the other hand, I’ve heard others say it just as you do.



People are different to each other. Shocking.
Also, whatever gets you through the night, it’s alright.

I'd find it very difficult to go back to it being 'just' my hobby.

 

[story]

I'd find it very difficult to go back to it being 'just' my hobby.

This is an aside but I’m curious…

Could you identify the threshold of that change?
What release or gig or achievement was the point of change for you?

 

[story]

Another possibly side hustle: Justin Hawkins from The Darkness runs a YouTube channel that’s about reactions to new releases and news in the music industry etc.

Several other YouTube reaction channels are run and hosted by musicians.

And some are doing breakdowns of chords, lyrics etc. or history and lore of RnR.
Some really interesting stuff available.

 

[klang]

This is an aside but I’m curious…

Could you identify the threshold of that change?
What release or gig or achievement was the point of change for you?

I got a job to make music for a king running TV show which served as a spring board. I had the time to fine-tune my skills and earned enough money to live and invest in gear etc.
Stopped doing it a couple of years ago as I wanted to concentrate on other things and felt that I had creatively exhausted myself

 

[story]

Here's a video by a fella called Andy Edwards, he's a rock/jazz drummer, former college educator, former dance music producer. And now he's a youtuber. He's not necessarily talking sense but he has some music industry credentials.



Very briefly. The future isn't in record deals and live gigs like it used to be. It's in social media and content creation. And the latter should be the focus of artists, not a promotional side project.

Anyway. Discuss!

I’m watching this now.

This guy doesn’t know what the fuck he’s talking about.

He’s out of touch and he has a very narrow perspective.

He spends quite a lot of time showing off his huge private space filled with expensive equipment.

The rest of his channel suggests he’s not listening to any new music. He probably has no idea about who’s making new music and playing it live in his nearest town.


Posted too soon so I’ll add with edits.


He’s now saying musicians need to study the media industry. I’d argue that youngsters are necessarily very savvy about the media. It’s the waters they swim in.


He’s saying that media and advertising /marketing are the two main sources of income for music makers? Then they’re working in media & advertising and marketing, they’re not musicians.


He’s saying that musicians are getting it wrong.
Who is he? Sorry but who is this man? With 41K subscribers on his YT channel?
Just looked at his Wiki page. Meh. Not impressed. He did some drumming for Robert Plant, he’s been in a couple of low level prog rock bands. And he was (is) course leader on a music course at Kidderminster College.

Andy Edwards (musician) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

His assumptions are outdated and wrong.

“You’ll be buying all the magazines…” No one who makes music is buying “all the magazines”


When he says if you’re in a band and you get signed, you’re not running things you’re the customer… No, the band is the product. The musician is the product.



He says that musicians can either buy their own equipment and be out of pocket there, or go to a studio to use their equipment and then you’re competing with the professionals who run and work in the studio…. Is he not aware that pretty much every one who works in a studio is either in a band, or wholeheartedly supports the music industry. Sure, higher up when you get into people doing shit for the income you’ll be up against peope who are more motivated and better at making money. It he’s saying “when you start”. At the starting level, everyone in the biz is there for the love of the music. (Sadly, it’s often this dedication to the cause that gets in the way of making actual money, for some of them).


Fuckinell. So…. “You got to stop thinking about getting a logo, getting some T-shirts, the band name, making an album… all that’s gone, it’s no longer required.” No. Just No.

“Get rid of those goals. Get rid of the gigs.”
What the fuck?


Vinyl sales are up. CD sales are expected to follow. People are buying music.


I can’t watch any more of this nonsense.

 

[Knotted]

I've been to one BIG gig in my entire life and that was last year seeing Raye. It was good but I'd be happier with something more intimate. I am very rarely interest in big names anyway.

I rarely go to gigs these days. The last really good one was a couple of performances of Eliane Radigue's ultra minimalist drone pieces. That wouldn't have worked well online because it was all about the resonances and the overtones. But most music is not like that.

On the other hand I watch live performances by a guy called Coco Capitaine Poulet and he's just some Fench guy who is music teacher and he plays the ukulele and sings little songs and it's magical. Trying to listen to him live in the flesh with people nattering and crashing about would be awful. He's not loud. He doesn't dominate a space. But I don't have to put up with having to be in a room with bloody humans because of social media. Plus I don't have to travel to France etc. Plus I would never have found him in the first place.

As a consumer of music, I think this new order is generally for the best.

 

[Knotted]

I’m watching this now.

This guy doesn’t know what the fuck he’s talking about.

He’s out of touch and he has a very narrow perspective.

He spends quite a lot of time showing off his huge private space filled with expensive equipment.

The rest of his channel suggests he’s not listening to any new music. He probably has no idea about who’s making new music and playing it live in his nearest town.

Can you expand on the narrow perspective point?

 

[story]

Can you expand on the narrow perspective point?

He has a narrow perspective. It’s obvious to me that he has no idea what’s happening in the music world and the industry.

People are still signing new bands. The current music scene is more more eclectic and more exciting than I’ve seen for a really long time. The people making music are not expecting, or wanting, things to be as they were. They sometimes quiz me on what it was like back then, was it easier then, what might be the same now, can anything be brought from back then to now… They’re smart, curious and interested in making the industry work for them, now, in the modern world. They’re bypassing the big old stuff, they’re doing it DIY. They’re not waiting around to be signed. (Some are, and they get signed, and they’re very boring predictable bands, doing the boring old stuff in the boring old way.)

What’s going on now is completely different to anything I’ve seen since Punk. The oldsters are taking their lead from the youngsters, they recognise the youngsters know more about how to put yourself out there than we oldsters to

This bloke isn’t seeing it because he’s still looking through his old lens. He’s completely out of touch.

 

[story]

I've been to one BIG gig in my entire life and that was last year seeing Raye. It was good but I'd be happier with something more intimate. I am very rarely interest in big names anyway.

I rarely go to gigs these days. The last really good one was a couple of performances of Eliane Radigue's ultra minimalist drone pieces. That wouldn't have worked well online because it was all about the resonances and the overtones. But most music is not like that.

On the other hand I watch live performances by a guy called Coco Capitaine Poulet and he's just some Fench guy who is music teacher and he plays the ukulele and sings little songs and it's magical. Trying to listen to him live in the flesh with people nattering and crashing about would be awful. He's not loud. He doesn't dominate a space. But I don't have to put up with having to be in a room with bloody humans because of social media. Plus I don't have to travel to France etc. Plus I would never have found him in the first place.

As a consumer of music, I think this new order is generally for the best.

People do listen to music, especially the quiet shows.

Could have heard a pin drop in the room last night.

A young RnR crowd, all silent.

It’s true that cheap coke has made for a lot of chatter and we’ve been discussing that in another thread.

And different venues draw different crowds. Some house crowds are very music literate and are mostly there for the music, while others, not so much.

 

[Knotted]

People do listen to music, especially the quiet shows.

Could have heard a pin drop in the room last night.

A young RnR crowd, all silent.

It’s true that cheap coke has made for a lot of chatter and we’ve been discussing that in another thread.

And different venues draw different crowds. Some house crowds are very music literate and are mostly there for the music, while others, not so much.

The thing is why risk being in a room listening to something like that when the best case scenario is that it's almost as good as listening online where you can have no distractions whatsoever? Plus all the clart and expense of getting to the venue in the first place.

 

[story]

Knotted
I saw Craven Faults earlier in the year. Absolute silence in the room

 

[story]

The thing is why risk being in a room listening to something like that when the best case scenario is that it's almost as good as listening online where you can have no distractions whatsoever? Plus all the clart and expense of getting to the venue in the first place.

But for me, it’s not.

For me, I much much prefer seeing a band live to seeing them on the screen.

 

[story]

The thing is why risk being in a room listening to something like that when the best case scenario is that it's almost as good as listening online where you can have no distractions whatsoever? Plus all the clart and expense of getting to the venue in the first place.

It might be the best case scenario for you, and that’s fine for you.
For me, it’s not.

I was at a folk session not long ago and I leaned over to say something to my companion about the music. I said it quietly, behind my hand. I moved slowly and I kept my head down. Someone nearby shushed me so loudly that people turned around to look at him. He was more distracting than I was for sure.

And what the fuck?!

The folk session music was rowdy, loud, a bit ramshackle, and the audience were supposed to sit stock still and not even comment on the music?

Fuck that overly precious bollocks.
I stayed for another couple of songs and left.

At a different folk session, you’re allowed to talk, even to the musicians while they’re playing, to ask if they want a drink, to say hello or goodbye, so I go to that one now.

 

[Knotted]

When he says if you’re in a band and you get signed, you’re not running things you’re the customer… No, the band is the product. The musician is the product.

I think this is the crux. The musician is both consumer and producer. Costs/revenues. The question of whether the musician is more a consumer than a producer is the correct question to ask.

If people can make it the old way with tours, record deals and merchandise, then he's wrong.

 

[pbsmooth]

It’s happened already.

I think the decline in bands has been well publicised - high costs of studio space, touring, harder to make money from sales because nobody buys music, streaming royalties are massively skewed so not much for anyone outside the very top.

In electronic music it’s been a joke for a few years that the DJs breaking through are the ones who look nice and post endless stupid dancing videos on social. It’s very hard to stay relevant without doing social it seems. So it’s no longer about the music or skills but how good your social promo is in terms of getting bookings and getting your music heard.

In theory it’s never been easier to find an audience without needing big labels or big set up costs - via social and streaming - but the reality is the lower barrier to entry means there are a gazillion new tracks and new artists every day, so actually cutting through is very hard.

Icing on the cake is the old labels are now in leagues with the new gatekeepers - social and streaming services - to get promoted and play listed etc which is the only way people listen now.

Oh and of course we have AI produced music now…

 

[hash tag]

Well, I’m very unlikely to watch it, but that sounds very depressing. But I know that unless you’re a HUGE name you can’t live on music sales or gig revenue.

But “content creation”. Yuch. I wouldn’t want to be in that business.

There is also a fortune to be made in merch.
My concern is AI. A whole album has already been made an released by AI which is not for me.

 

[danny la rouge]

There is also a fortune to be made in merch.

Yup, I know a musician in a well-known (in Scotland) band who says his job is t-shirt sales.

 

[story]

It’s happened already.

I think the decline in bands has been well publicised - high costs of studio space, touring, harder to make money from sales because nobody buys music, streaming royalties are massively skewed so not much for anyone outside the very top.

In electronic music it’s been a joke for a few years that the DJs breaking through are the ones who look nice and post endless stupid dancing videos on social. It’s very hard to stay relevant without doing social it seems. So it’s no longer about the music or skills but how good your social promo is in terms of getting bookings and getting your music heard.

In theory it’s never been easier to find an audience without needing big labels or big set up costs - via social and streaming - but the reality is the lower barrier to entry means there are a gazillion new tracks and new artists every day, so actually cutting through is very hard.

Icing on the cake is the old labels are now in leagues with the new gatekeepers - social and streaming services - to get promoted and play listed etc which is the only way people listen now.

Oh and of course we have AI produced music now…

That video article is about no more bands in the charts. That’s true. But the charts have been increasingly anachronistic for a while

That’s a natural progression of marketing and capitalism. Music being commodified and sold back to the public. It’s inevitable that the charts become less about the music and more about the bottom line (after all they were set up to reflect sales, originally as a measure of popularity but that metric is no longer useful).

These days the charts don’t have anything to do with music made by musicians and playing tours (I’m not talking about Taylor and Bey and Billie). The charts don’t have anything to say about the music that most people who love music seek out. They reflect the kind of music we see and hear in films, adverts, in the background of TV shows. That part of the music industry is churning away like all the other parts of the machine, seeking ever more eye catching candy-sweet ways to catch the attention of dopamine addicts.




What are we taking about here? On this thread. Are we talking about musicians trying to make a living making music? Or are we talking about organisations, labels, the industry trying to make money out of music?

It’s a really clear distinction.

I’m talking about the musicians and the bands. If we’re talking about the industry, I’m less interested in chatting about it. I just watch that from the sidelines.

Machine gonna machine .

 

[story]

There is also a fortune to be made in merch.
My concern is AI. A whole album has already been made an released by AI which is not for me.

Yes merch is still a decent earner. Especially for bands with recognition.

AI… meh.

So much of the bilge we were force fed in the past was manufactured to some degree anyway. For me, SAW output was unlistenable partly because it was so fucking predictably and obviously SAW.


I’m not saying it’s not a problem. I think A.I. is a demon out of the bottle.

But it’s part of the machine. Musicians won’t be using A.I. They just won’t, because they’re musicians, their love and creative urge is to make music.

 

[story]

Yup, I know a musician in a well-known (in Scotland) band who says his job is t-shirt sales.

That’s kind of an in joke though.

Remember the t.shirt bands of the 90s? That’s what they’re called in the biz. The T.Shirt Bands. They’re still making coin selling their shirts, even the ones who never tour.

I was at the Art Brut show the other night. Eddie Argos was manning the merch stall, selling t.shirts, before going on stage. That’s what he does, he sells t.shirts. (And art).

 

[story]

That video article is about no more bands in the charts. That’s true. But the charts have been increasingly anachronistic for a while

That’s a natural progression of marketing and capitalism. Music being commodified and sold back to the public. It’s inevitable that the charts become less about the music and more about the bottom line (after all they were set up to reflect sales, originally as a measure of popularity but that metric is no longer useful).

These days the charts don’t have anything to do with music made by musicians and playing tours (I’m not talking about Taylor and Bey and Billie). The charts don’t have anything to say about the music that most people who love music seek out. They reflect the kind of music we see and hear in films, adverts, in the background of TV shows. That part of the music industry is churning away like all the other parts of the machine, seeking ever more eye catching candy-sweet ways to catch the attention of dopamine addicts.




What are we taking about here? On this thread. Are we talking about musicians trying to make a living making music? Or are we talking about organisations, labels, the industry trying to make money out of music?

It’s a really clear distinction.

I’m talking about the musicians and the bands. If we’re talking about the industry, I’m less interested in chatting about it. I just watch that from the sidelines.

Machine gonna machine .

No more bands in the charts is a completely different statement to there are no more bands.

There are shit tonnes of bands.

Also, Anthony Fantano is American. The US music industry is a different animal to what we have here. Like I said, I’m very UK-centric. I’m paying attention elsewhere but that’s observational not experiential.

And he's pretty self-styled as a critic and commentator. He’s not especially involved in the live scene. He listens to LPs. He gets plenty of traction from people who listen to the radio and buy product but he’s not respected by musicians. The industry puts more store in what he says than music makers do.

 

[rutabowa]

I'm fascinated by signcrushesmotorist (this is just 1 of about 20 or so project names he has)... he started a couple of years ago, 17 yr old kid from belfast... he is massively prolific, churning out album after album of slow core (v lofi melancholy guitar songs), all v short songs, on spotify and youtube... all under different names... but somehow the algorhythm loves it, he is getting 10s of millions of views. also v popular on tiktok/instagram as reel soundtracks. he's now moved to the states and has produced an album by a famous rapper. I dont understand how it works!!! but it does work for him.

 

[story]

I'm fascinated by signcrushesmotorist (this is just 1 of about 20 or so project names he has)... he started a couple of years ago, 17 yr old kid from belfast... he is massively prolific, churning out album after album of slow core (v lofi melancholy guitar songs), all v short songs, on spotify and youtube... all under different names... but somehow the algorhythm loves it, he is getting 10s of millions of views. also v popular on tiktok/instagram as reel soundtracks. he's now moved to the states and has produced an album by a famous rapper. I dont understand how it works!!! but it does work for him.

He’s not the only person making music in the socials and ignoring the normal routes..

That thread on here about musicians (especially rap/hip hop) getting millions of views.

 

[story]

There’s something really interesting happening in Ireland right now. I’m seeing plenty of stuff coming from there.

 

[rutabowa]

I should add, I first found out about him thru hearing a tune on Instagram and assuming it was some 90s obscure indie band... it really is v low fi... "I fuck with it", as the kids say... kind of works best as a 20 second snippet tho. but his new rap production is potentially v interesting

 

[rutabowa]

He’s not the only person making music in the socials and ignoring the normal routes..

That thread on here about musicians (especially rap/hip hop) getting millions of views.

yeh, tho that thread is more a reflection of the demographic here rather than unknown artists, mostly! like Kodak black was the 1st mention ha