What is the future of professional music making?

[rutabowa]

also scm has hit 100 million, not 10 million views!

 

[story]

yeh, tho that thread is more a reflection of the demographic here rather than unknown artists, mostly! like Kodak black was the 1st mention ha

Sure, but the point is about musicians (at any stage of their career) putting their music out there regardless of what the industry says is the right way to do things.



Some bands even down at the bottom end sometimes play under a fake name if their label says they can / can’t do something.

Point being, there are ways to slip round the back and under the counter, and people who make music are more motivated by making music than they are by most other things.

 

[pbsmooth]

That video article is about no more bands in the charts. That’s true. But the charts have been increasingly anachronistic for a while

That’s a natural progression of marketing and capitalism. Music being commodified and sold back to the public. It’s inevitable that the charts become less about the music and more about the bottom line (after all they were set up to reflect sales, originally as a measure of popularity but that metric is no longer useful).

These days the charts don’t have anything to do with music made by musicians and playing tours (I’m not talking about Taylor and Bey and Billie). The charts don’t have anything to say about the music that most people who love music seek out. They reflect the kind of music we see and hear in films, adverts, in the background of TV shows. That part of the music industry is churning away like all the other parts of the machine, seeking ever more eye catching candy-sweet ways to catch the attention of dopamine addicts.




What are we taking about here? On this thread. Are we talking about musicians trying to make a living making music? Or are we talking about organisations, labels, the industry trying to make money out of music?

It’s a really clear distinction.

I’m talking about the musicians and the bands. If we’re talking about the industry, I’m less interested in chatting about it. I just watch that from the sidelines.

Machine gonna machine .

Fair distinction between bands and the industry but the general conclusions are the same - very few musicians are making money. Fewer than before, harder than before. Talking about side hustles and having other jobs to make it work is clearly evidence of that fact.

 

[Knotted]

Another possibly side hustle: Justin Hawkins from The Darkness runs a YouTube channel that’s about reactions to new releases and news in the music industry etc.

Several other YouTube reaction channels are run and hosted by musicians.

And some are doing breakdowns of chords, lyrics etc. or history and lore of RnR.
Some really interesting stuff available.

Justin Hawkins youtube is a bit more than just reaction videos. He's got a pretty decent channel and he has a few things to say. Is it a side hustle? I don't think it would be sustainable if he didn't have a bit of energy and passion and creativity. It would be stale and it would flop, or rather it would never get off the ground. You can't get into video making as just a side hustle any more than you can get into music as a side hustle.

 

[story]

Fair distinction between bands and the industry but the general conclusions are the same - very few musicians are making money. Fewer than before, harder than before. Talking about side hustles and having other jobs to make it work is clearly evidence of that fact.

Most bands never made money in the past either.

It still works more or less the same way.

Enormous amounts of ready cash hurled in their general direction, which then cascades through a set of filters (manager, agent, promoter) who each take their percentage. Then it goes to pay for press, studio time (rehearsal and writing), equipment (buying and maintenance), living expenses. How the the music makers get paid is organised by the band and the manager.

Tours are given tour support, which pays for rehearsals, hall hire, bus hire, accommodation, crew, per diems, incidentals…..

Same with making records: the label pays for everything up front and it looks like an amazing lump sum of money, which goes towards the studio, the producer, then the art work, press and promotion….. and it all has to be paid back to the label put of earnings.

Everything is recoupable, meaning the band has to pay it back out of earnings. That may never end up happening. Plenty of famous bands are still in hock to their label and always will be, meaning that the label can release their records any time they want to. Band will get royalties, producers will get points, label gets the lions share. The difference between tour earnings and the advance goes to the band. The money the band gets might look huge but when you average it out, for most bands it’s pretty modest,

Record sales, merch sales, royalties, points,….. bands get income from all that but it’s sliced up into pieces of pie and percentages. Some bands are smart and keep hold of their merch.

And remember that only some of the band get the money, some of them are hired guns who get a daily rate or a fee per tour.

But given that any band (exceptions are obvious to all of us) has a limited shelf life, and all their income is at the front end, and they pay huge huge tax on that too because on paper they’re getting huge money, bands generally don’t end up making big money. Plenty of stories about famous musicians struggling for money.

At a certain level, many musicians are obliged to keep playing and producing music because they’re basically unemployable for anything else, and they’re in hock to the label, and they’re not cool or hot enough for a new label to sign them. The old label might renew the contract and keep them around, or drop them, or not renew the contract even though they haven’t recouped, and now never will.

All the power is with the industry.
Making bands look powerful and important is a trick of the light.

It might actually be better in the future, with less of the enormo-sums being flung at them and more of a normal flow that arrives over time.

Young music makers want to be signed by a manager and an agent, but they’re truly not that bothered about being signed by a label. It’s so easy to make your own records these days. The hard work, the boring work, is the admin: sorting out the show, the tour etc. Paying someone else a percentage of income to get that done makes sense to the band. Signing to a label no longer makes good sense. Unless you want to go up a level and work inside the machine.

Some do, and there will aways be bands that really want to do it the old fashioned way.

But there are now a plethora of small decent independent labels, often started and staffed by people who at some point have been or still are musicians themselves. Those labels are just as able and competent, and if then more supple and responsive, than the big labels.

Bigger labels are increasingly employing younger people and going more skinny at the top end. There has always been a lot of bloat at the top, people drawing down execrable sums of cash to sit round and pretend they have an opinion, shake hands and suck dick.

So so many musicians were traditionally supported by other band members, their wives and girlfriends, or just kinda disappeared when they weren’t on the road. Some bands would pay there hired guns a retainer, or they’d do session work, or work with other bands, or teach music, run or work in studios, or do sound engineering at their local live venue, or whatever else they could manage, but mostly invisibly. Now they’re more visibly doing it, less embarrassed.
In the past, it was seen to be embarrassing or shameful to have to go elsewhere to get some money. The gig economy and online living and the very notion of doing a “side hustle” (its even been given its own name) has changed that.


Bands and musicians have always struggled. Everything is more visible these days.


Things do need to change, we’ve never supported our musicians properly. Music is one of the UKs most lucrative important income streams, internationally. But there is no govt support or recognition or breaks for them.

But it’s not true to say that it was better in the past.

 

[story]

Justin Hawkins youtube is a bit more than just reaction videos. He's got a pretty decent channel and he has a few things to say. Is it a side hustle? I don't think it would be sustainable if he didn't have a bit of energy and passion and creativity. It would be stale and it would flop, or rather it would never get off the ground. You can't get into video making as just a side hustle any more than you can get into music as a side hustle.

The Darkness are on tour in December and next year.
If you asked JH if he considers himself a YT content make or a musician, what do you reckon his answer would be?


And yeah, I agree.
Certainly the YT channel is successful because he’s JH : charismatic, joyful, a natural performer, and experienced and knowledgeable and interested and curious about music.

It’s likely a steady income for him, but not his main source of income (or maybe it is. YT income baffles me)

I mentioned him as an example of someone who has successfully set up an alternative way to make money that’s not just making and playing music. He’s an exception cos his band is big and successful. But he’s not making mega bucks with his fancy schmancy schlockrock music. And as successful as his channel is, what other musicians could realistically be making similarly successful YT videos?

 

[Knotted]

The Darkness are on tour right now.
If you asked JH if he considers himself a YT content make or a musician, what do you reckon his answer would be?


And yeah, I agree.
Certainly the YT channel is successful because he’s JH : charismatic, joyful, a natural performer, and experienced and knowledgeable and interested and curious about music.

He's someone who suffers from depression (the band name is a reference to depression) and I don't think joyfulness is part of his intrinsic character. What I think is happening is that he's enjoying the creative outlet it affords him.

Personality I don't care at all about his music, but I do care at least a little bit about his youtube channel.

The same with Andy Edwards. You may not like what he's saying but hus videos are a creative outlet for him and he has said as much. And his music is the on the side extra.

It’s likely a steady income for him, but not his main source of income (or maybe it is. YT income baffles me)

I mentioned him as an example of someone who has successfully set up an alternative way to make money that’s not just making and playing music. He’s an exception cos his band is big and successful. But he’s not making mega bucks with his fancy schmancy schlockrock music. And as successful as his channel is, what other musicians could realistically be making similarly successful YT videos?

The talking into the camera style youtube video is going to be an option for a talented and enthusiastic minority, I don't think many people can do it. But I sense the OP is right (in most cases) in that making music online should be viewed as more than a side hustle.

 

[story]

I'm not even sure what this discussion is about anymore tbh.


Justin Hawkins.
Yes, I know.

Joyful. As in joyful enthusiastic involved engaged presentation of something he loves and that is important to him. His enthusiastic delivery of his information is joyful.

For the most part, when he’s on stage doing his front man thing, it’s joyful. And that joyful fulsome engagement and love for his subject is infectious and pulls in the viewer.
That’s what I meant.

 

[Knotted]

I'm not even sure what this discussion is about anymore tbh.


Justin Hawkins.
Yes, I know.

Joyful. As in joyful enthusiastic involved engaged presentation of something he loves and that is important to him. His enthusiastic delivery of his information is joyful.

For the most part, when he’s on stage doing his front man thing, it’s joyful. And that joyful fulsome engagement and love for his subject is infectious and pulls in the viewer.
That’s what I meant.

Well Andy Edwards is offering a modern way of looking at music as a profession. I think your pov is that it's not necessary - bands can survive like they always have. But whether people here agree with you or not, most are viewing social media as a side hustle. But I think AE is right in challenging that attitude even if he is (maybe) wrong and bands/artists can still make it the old way.

The old way of logos, t shirts, branding, promotion, albums, gigs at dodgy venues, marketing, merch. Is that actually worth trying to preserve? If the alternative is creatively finding expression on social media, is that so bad?

He makes a very telling point in that if you are just using social media to promote your music then you are making bad content. This rings true. The artist has to find a way of making their social media work work artistically.

 

[story]

No, that’s not what I’m saying.
I’m not saying it’s not necessary to find a different model.
That’s not at all what I’m saying.

The old model is fantastically exploitative, and although it looks like bands get piles of cash, they never really did.

Let’s please do it differently. Not only because it’s old fashioned and exploitative, but because the whole world is different now anyway.

I’m saying that this Andy Edwards chap (who is himself old, and played in prog rock bands, and doesn’t seem to talk about new music on his channel at all)… I’m saying that the model he proposes is not modern, and it’s wrong. He’s suggesting that bands ditch all the stuff that is intrinsic to RnR culture and focus on the marketing. But then it’s not music, it’s marketing.

T.shirts logos LPs gigs tours badges dodgy venues with sweaty ceilings, all that is the sticky beery blood of rock and roll, and bands don’t want to get rid of that stuff.

And anyway, bands and musicians are already marketing themselves in all the ways he suggests.

I suspect he’s looking at a particular section of the industry, a part that is undoubtedly creaking and cracking with dry old dust, and extrapolating from that. He’s not seeing the exciting vivid burgeoning scene bubbling up in the smaller clubs and gig halls.


I’ve had a look at Kidderminster. There doesn’t seem to be much of a scene there at all. Loads of covers bands catering to weddings, and the local venue is booked solid with tribute acts. Birmingham doesn’t appear to have much going on either. Some death metal. Some bands booked into XOYO on their tours (including a Brixton band) some mid level acts, one of whom looks interesting to me, some dance stuff. I’d be glad for someone to tell me what’s going on in Brum right now on the music scene.

So perhaps he’s not aware of what’s going on elsewhere, especially here in SE London (I would say that cos I’m here, but also, people are coming here from all over, from the US, Korea, Europe to check out the SE London).

I’m saying that I think the music scene is doing something really interesting right now, and I have faith that they will find a new dynamic way to make a living out of music. I’m saying that right now, it looks like these Gen Z musicians have the bit between their teeth, they know that what’s gone before is broken, and they are developing new ways to build their lives. They are aware that they need to be innovative, they have grit determination, imagination, confidence and ambition.

I’m saying they don’t need the advice of some old git like me or Andy Edwards.

They’re doing the socials, I promise you they’re doing the socials. Yesterday I spent nearly two hours 2 whole hours trawling all the socials and updating my diary with gig dates and keeping up with news of tours, releases and so forth of the small bands I follow.



I think I’ve talked altogether far too much about this now. It’s just that I keep hearing this rubbish about RnR being over, bands are over, there’s no new music, and it’s just not true. I’m as excited about the live music scene as I’ve ever been in my whole life. And I’ve seen massive slumps over the years for sure. But right now, things are good.

The kids are alright.
I trust them.

 

[souljacker]

I've got two adult children involved in the music industry (one in a regular gigging original material band and one training to be a sound engineer) and neither of them would regard having their music used by Suella Braverman as a mark of success.

Very true but he got paid a decent wedge and he's only 17 so he's very happy. Personally I would have told her to fuck off lol.