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hiraethified
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Brexit and musicians/performers and the touring industry: news, updates and experiences
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A reminder of the clear rules for this thread.
story
Changing the facts
And that’s quite funny, cos I clipped out the bit about the merch.
Keeping tabs on the merch is another whole Thing. It’s a travelling shop. A pop up shop in a dirty venue. Just keep the merch neat and clean is a chore. Keeping tabs on the cash is another chore. Especially when you’re selling to hyped up drunk people, in the dark. Daily stock take and inventory is another chore. Just hauling the stuff around is a fucking pain in the arse. Then you ve got the problem of either not sell enough, or being mobbed at the stand. And all the cash and/or digital banking involved too.
Either one of the band or crew has to man the merch table, or leave it all out and trust the crowd not to steal.
And all that is before we get to the bit about the house taking a percentage and the shit show politics and hassle around all that. Trying to work out percentages under the beady eye of the promotor at closing time. Or having to provide accounts on the daily. It’s all a hassle.
Adding carnets into all this is just a hideous drag,
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TopCat
Putin fanboy
How many pages was the last carnet form you completed?
story
Changing the facts
TopCat
Putin fanboy
A big band with lots of stuff?
story
Changing the facts
This is a redundant question.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
Well i was trying to get an idea of the complexity of the carnet application process from someone who has recently done one. I know it's complicated touring, especially as you describe it with crew, band, kit, merchandise etc. But the focus of this thread really has been about the difficulties small, struggling bands face touring the EU. The latter can't take a backline so how much kit can they possibly have to play gigs abroad? I doubt for most of these types of bands that they have to complete a 46 page form unless it's to add a lot of N/A's in.
editor
hiraethified
I'm not sure what answer you're expecting here or what your point you're trying to make.
Even small bands would end up with multiple pages because once you start listing every amp, pedal, case, guitar, strings, sticks and all the other stuff it's going to be a big list (as was my band's),
To list just the items of my drum kit would take up a whole page and that's assuming I can dig up proof of purchase for items and accessories that were bought anything up to 30 years ago. And having to do that would take up a fucking huge amount of time, and I'd probably have to run the risk of faking some entries too because I've no idea where they were bought.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
It's a key question, perhaps answer it?
TopCat
Putin fanboy
Don't you do this just once and keep a file?
editor
hiraethified
A huge amount of small bands take all their equipment abroad in a van. It's quite rare for venues to provide all the backline.
And the selling of merch remains a huge concern for bands as it's often the inly way a tour can be financially supported.
editor
hiraethified
If I never ever changed my equipment ever again, maybe. And that's assuming I'd be able to provide proof of purchase for everything - which I can't - and managed to get away with it.
But for musicians working with different bands, they'll almost certainly be taking some different gear abroad each time.
story
Changing the facts
Touchy…
I haven’t worked in that capacity for a while, so it was some years ago. They were a pretty big band in terms of sales but they didn’t have much more kit than any other band. It was a matter of numbers of bits of kit, not excess kit. So filling i in was the same as for another smaller band, just larger numbers in the bit where you put the numbers.
god, trying to explain a carnet to someone who’s never done one!
Filling in the carnet is something that everyone who works with bands knows about, regardless of how big or small they are. From the manager down to the driver and merch seller, everyone will have some connection with the carnet, even if it’s only knowing that it needs to be checked and having to sit around while it’s done at the border. Which itself can be an issue if someone is jonesing or being a general pain in the balls for some other reason. Everyone in the background knows it’s a big thing that is an unavoidable hassle. The TM/driver will need to keep it to hand and in good order ( damage will invalidate it). The band need to keep the carnet filler-inner updated on their kit (try getting detailed information out of the doomy bass player who’s breaking up with his gf…). The carnet filler-inner needs to hassle the drummer to make sure nothing has been left off. If it’s the drummer who is the filler-inner, they can be really OCD and insist on coming over. If it’s the singer (“you’ve got less kit so it’s less of a hassle for you….”… yeah right…) that can throw up a different set of issues.
Carnet for small bands is still a fucking hassle.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
I'm not touchy, I asked a question and you described it as redundant and did not answer? Why is my question redundant?Touchy…
I haven’t worked in that capacity for a while, so it was some years ago. They were a pretty big band in terms of sales but they didn’t have much more kit than any other band. It was a matter of numbers of bits of kit, not excess kit. So filling i in was the same as for another smaller band, just larger numbers in the bit where you put the numbers.
god, trying to explain a carnet to someone who’s never done one!
Filling in the carnet is something that everyone who works with bands knows about, regardless of how big or small they are. From the manager down to the driver and merch seller, everyone will have some connection with the carnet, even if it’s only knowing that it needs to be checked and having to sit around while it’s done at the border. Which itself can be an issue if someone is jonesing or being a general pain in the balls for some other reason. Everyone in the background knows it’s a big thing that is an unavoidable hassle. The TM/driver will need to keep it to hand and in good order ( damage will invalidate it). The band need to keep the carnet filler-inner updated on their kit (try getting detailed information out of the doomy bass player who’s breaking up with his gf…). The carnet filler-inner needs to hassle the drummer to make sure nothing has been left off. If it’s the drummer who is the filler-inner, they can be really OCD and insist on coming over. If it’s the singer (“you’ve got less kit so it’s less of a hassle for you….”… yeah right…) that can throw up a different set of issues.
Carnet for small bands is still a fucking hassle.
spitfire
Walty McWaltface
Touchy…
I haven’t worked in that capacity for a while, so it was some years ago. They were a pretty big band in terms of sales but they didn’t have much more kit than any other band. It was a matter of numbers of bits of kit, not excess kit. So filling i in was the same as for another smaller band, just larger numbers in the bit where you put the numbers.
god, trying to explain a carnet to someone who’s never done one!
Filling in the carnet is something that everyone who works with bands knows about, regardless of how big or small they are. From the manager down to the driver and merch seller, everyone will have some connection with the carnet, even if it’s only knowing that it needs to be checked and having to sit around while it’s done at the border. Which itself can be an issue if someone is jonesing or being a general pain in the balls for some other reason. Everyone in the background knows it’s a big thing that is an unavoidable hassle. The TM/driver will need to keep it to hand and in good order ( damage will invalidate it). The band need to keep the carnet filler-inner updated on their kit (try getting detailed information out of the doomy bass player who’s breaking up with his gf…). The carnet filler-inner needs to hassle the drummer to make sure nothing has been left off. If it’s the drummer who is the filler-inner, they can be really OCD and insist on coming over. If it’s the singer (“you’ve got less kit so it’s less of a hassle for you….”… yeah right…) that can throw up a different set of issues.
Carnet for small bands is still a fucking hassle.
We only ever had to do 1 carnet for Switzerland and it was a PITA, splitter bus with minimal backline.
Everything story says is very familiar. TC, it is a pain, trust us.
story
Changing the facts
No!
This is not how it works, it’s not a time and motion experiment.
It needs to be filled in new everytime. Kit changes frequently, even for bands who mostly use the same kit. They might want to take this guitar out this time, or have a a new one, or borrowed one cos the other one broke. Even if someone is keeping a nice up to date spreadsheet, thst itself needs to be maintained, and then moved over to the fucking carnet.
story
Changing the facts
Because the carnet is the carnet is the carnet. Larger bands will have someone in the office who fills them in, and that has a particular set of attendant issues (like trying to get hold of a musician or get into the lock up to do the fucking carnet and just not knowing that the bass player has his touring bass at home). Smaller bands have a smaller-band set of issues.
whether the band is big or not isn’t the issue. It looked as if you were going to say “bigger band, bigger carnet, that’s not what we’re talking about here” etc.
All I’m doing here is try to get you to understand that the carnet is a huge fucking hassle, and someone who doesnt have first hand experience of carnets, whatever the size of the band, is not best placed to tell people who DO have experience of carnetts that it’s not a big deal.
it’s almost like victim blaming!
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TopCat
Putin fanboy
John X who does this stuff a lot and who is touring next week reports:
"It depends on how many countries you visit. The first ten pages are in triplicate then you attach a list of all equipment, value, country of manufacture. Each crossing in or out of the EU needs a section handing over and your copy stamped. "
"It depends on how many countries you visit. The first ten pages are in triplicate then you attach a list of all equipment, value, country of manufacture. Each crossing in or out of the EU needs a section handing over and your copy stamped. "
story
Changing the facts
Circling back to your point about small bands being pointless.
Okay.
But that’s got nothing to do with your assertion that carnets are easy peasy.
They‘re not. Carnets are horrible drains on time, energy, often money too if you pay someone to do it, and theyre a real fucking buzz kill too.
”Yay, touring!…. oh, wait…. Carnet… boo…”
TopCat
Putin fanboy
I never made that point. This is the second time on this thread you are responding to things that haven't happened, or well only in your mind.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
I never said that either. Can you stick to actually quoting me please rather than making stuff up and attributing it to me.
story
Changing the facts
Easy peasy lemon squeezy, eh?
What work do you do? Imagine going to a several different countries to set up to do your work for one day in each country, with everything you might conceivably need to live and work each day. Now imagine making a list of every single thing you need in order to do the best work you can, in triplicate (so check the carbon has worked on every page, but don’t fill in the gaps with a pen or it will look like tampering), provide up current accurate info on the value of each of your tools, and a receipt for each on, where it was made. And make sure all the paperwork is in order before you leave, make sure it’s registered properly, because once you're out there you won’t there you can’t make any changes and any mistakes invalidate the entire document.
story
Changing the facts
story
Changing the facts
I took from this that you don’t rate a lot of smaller bands, that you consider it fairly pointless for a lot of small bands to exist or make the effort.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
Why would you extrapolate that from what I wrote? I'm finding it hard to engage with you when you are doing this.
The second point which you haven't quoted but also extrapolated from is simpler. I said most bands are shit. Most authors too and artists. This isn't controversial.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
I don't mock shit bands, big or small. But most bands fail as they are not very good.
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