Brexit and musicians/performers and the touring industry: news, updates and experiences

[TopCat]

"The ATA Carnet is an incredibly detailed and daunting piece of paperwork" said the White Lies.

It's not though. It's straightforward. A three page form (see link). An application for job seekers allowance is far more complicated.

https://www.gmchamber.co.uk/media/2320581/ata-18-ata-carnet-application-undertaking.pdf

 

[mojo pixy]

An application for a job involving making a CV, getting good and relevant references, then passing an interview and enhanced DBS check also very hard to complete successfully. I see people fail this process all the time.

Paperwork sucks, and everything seems to involve more and more paperwork all the time.

 

[TopCat]

Paperwork sucks, and everything seems to involve more and more paperwork all the time.

The carnet application process is three pages and online.

 

[Pickman's model]

An application for a job involving making a CV, getting good and relevant references, then passing an interview and enhanced DBS check also very hard to complete successfully. I see people fail this process all the time.

Paperwork sucks, and everything seems to involve more and more paperwork all the time.

to be fair the dbs check not really something the applicant does, all the applicant has to submit in writing is a cv and covering letter.

 

[ska invita]

"The ATA Carnet is an incredibly detailed and daunting piece of paperwork" said the White Lies.

It's not though. It's straightforward. A three page form (see link). An application for job seekers allowance is far more complicated.

https://www.gmchamber.co.uk/media/2320581/ata-18-ata-carnet-application-undertaking.pdf

youve linked to a form from before brexit (dated 2017)- are you sure thats the correct one?

 

[TopCat]

youve linked to a form from before brexit (dated 2017)- are you sure thats the correct one?

Are you sure it's from 2017?

 

[TopCat]

Says 2018. If I am wrong and it's now 200 pages long I apologise. bet it's not though.

 

[ska invita]

Are you sure it's from 2017?

im may have misread it
its still a weird form - directed to the Greater Manchester Chamber of Commerce

 

[TopCat]

im may have misread it
its still a weird form - directed to the Greater Manchester Chamber of Commerce

It's the various chamber of commerces that are the issuing bodies.

 

[ska invita]

It's the various chamber of commerces that are the issuing bodies.

ah ive never done it
would be best to hear from someone who has some fresh experience really

 

[TopCat]

A poster on urban John x does tour management. He is visiting me soon I will ask about the forms and complexity as he almost certainly completes them all for the various bands he goes away with.

 

[Pickman's model]

A poster on urban John x does tour management. He is visiting me soon I will ask about the forms and complexity as he almost certainly completes them all for the various bands he goes away with.

i look forward to hearing your report

 

[mojo pixy]

to be fair the dbs check not really something the applicant does, all the applicant has to submit in writing is a cv and covering letter.

True, but there's the weeks of waiting, and obviously always the chance to fail because of some indiscretion long forgot. And the initial application form / CV and covering letter can take a day or more to do IME, especially if it's a job you actually want.

Harder, i guess, than a carnet application.

Brexit is shit, having to go to work every day to make ends meet and never going on tour because you can't afford the time off work .. is also shit.

 

[editor]

"The ATA Carnet is an incredibly detailed and daunting piece of paperwork" said the White Lies.

It's not though. It's straightforward. A three page form (see link). An application for job seekers allowance is far more complicated.

https://www.gmchamber.co.uk/media/2320581/ata-18-ata-carnet-application-undertaking.pdf

Have you ever filled in a carnet form? No, of course not, because if you had you'd understand that it is anything but 'straightforward.'

I've filled in one before we joined the EU and t's a colossal hassle. You have to list every single individual item, provide proof of purchase and carry it with you at all times. Could you produce proof of purchase for everything in your home? It's a major ballache.

Please note, we have heard reports of at least one musician being fined at the Eurostar station in France for not being able to show proof of purchase of their accompanied instrument to customs officers on request. This meant that they could not prove that the instrument had been purchased for use for professional purposes and not for resale. You are therefore advised to take proof of purchase and ownership of any accompanied instruments you are travelling with.

How to get a carnet​

Carnets are issued by the London Chamber of Commerce and Industry (LCC) (and other local chambers of commerce in the UK). The cost of a carnet comprises two elements:

1. an issuing fee (currently £360)

2. a security deposit, determined by the value of the goods/equipment listed in the carnet, and the time you are abroad. Musical instruments and equipment security deposits are calculated between 30-40% of the value. The security deposit can be arranged by

• a banker’s draft or cash, a bank guarantee or
• via the LCC’s in-house Carnet Security Scheme (CSS) Guarantee. This is a one-off non-refundable payment in lieu of a banker’s draft or cash or bank guarantee, and useful if you do not have the cash (and cannot secure a bank draft or guarantee) to pay the security deposit.
  
  If you wish to buy a carnet, you will need to register and create a profile on the LCC’s website.

Musicians' guide to ATA Carnets

Understand the documentation you may need when travelling internationally.

www.ism.org

 

[editor]

A poster on urban John x does tour management. He is visiting me soon I will ask about the forms and complexity as he almost certainly completes them all for the various bands he goes away with.

Loads of smaller bands manage themselves, and don't have people working for them to fill in the forms and do admin. Not that you give a shit anyway.

 

[editor]

Just look how 'straightforward' it is

: What is a Carnet?
A: Carnet is a "passport for goods", (NOT MERCHANDISE FOR SALE )
If you are moving professional equipment (such as musical instruments, backline, video/photographic equipment, exhibition goods) between UK and EU on a temporary basis (for a concert tour, for example), you will need to declare them to Customs using an ATA Carnet. This document acts as a passport for the goods, enabling you to import and re-export them without payment of duty or VAT.

The Carnet consists of a booklet of vouchers and counterfoils which is presented to Customs at each border, enabling you to declare your goods for duty-free and VAT-free entry and exit. After use, the Carnet must be returned for discharge by the Chamber of Commerce by which it was issued, whether in an EU country or the UK.

UK E artsinfo - Carnets

www.ukeartswork.info

Working, performing and touring in Europe - guidance for musical artists and accompanying staff

A checklist for musical artists and accompanying staff working, performing or touring in an EU country, Switzerland, Norway, Iceland or Liechtenstein.

www.gov.uk

 

[TopCat]

Could you produce proof of purchase for everything in your home? It's a major ballache.

Musicians' guide to ATA Carnets

Understand the documentation you may need when travelling internationally.

www.ism.org

What has this got to do with anything? You have to list the equipment and instruments you take with you not every item in your home.
Tell us how many pages was the last carnet document you completed?

 

[TopCat]

Loads of smaller bands manage themselves, and don't have people working for them to fill in the forms and do admin. Not that you give a shit anyway.

Lots of bands are shit and deserve to struggle and then give up. Most bands are in fact shit to be fair. The cream rises, the rest give up and sell their instruments to those who come after.

 

[story]

A poster on urban John x does tour management. He is visiting me soon I will ask about the forms and complexity as he almost certainly completes them all for the various bands he goes away with.

He‘ll tell you it’s shit. Really.
Because it really is shit.

 

[story]

Lots of bands are shit and deserve to struggle and then give up. Most bands are in fact shit to be fair. The cream rises, the rest give up and sell their instruments to those who come after.

Ah okay, you trolling, right Top Cat?

 

[TopCat]

Ah okay, you trolling, right Top Cat?

It's a reasonable point. The endless imploring for the fate of small struggling bands touring the EU. No other workers mind. The reality is though that most bands are shit, same as most authors and artists. Not relevant especially but seeing hyperbole rages on this thread it certainly fits in.

 

[Pickman's model]

i see the musicians union have been getting some helpful advice from the dcms Further Guidance Provided for Musicians using Eurotunnel

 

[killer b]

I guess the reason people are talking about brexit problems for touring musicians in the touring musicians and brexit thread instead of other workers is because it's the touring musicians & brexit thread tbf

 

[story]

It's a reasonable point. The endless imploring for the fate of small struggling bands touring the EU. No other workers mind. The reality is though that most bands are shit, same as most authors and artists. Not relevant especially but seeing hyperbole rages on this thread it certainly fits in.

Blimey.
Well you seem very certain about that, so I’ll not trouble you further on this point.

 

[editor]

What has this got to do with anything? You have to list the equipment and instruments you take with you not every item in your home.
Tell us how many pages was the last carnet document you completed?

I'm giving an example of how hard it is to provide proof of purchase for multiple items that you may have purchased years ago. I'm sorry if that went over your head.

It's going back many years but I remember the carnet we filled in was waaay bigger than three pages and we nearly missed a gig after being held up at the German/Austria border while all the gear was ordered out of the van and checked.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's a reasonable point. The endless imploring for the fate of small struggling bands touring the EU. No other workers mind. The reality is though that most bands are shit, same as most authors and artists. Not relevant especially but seeing hyperbole rages on this thread it certainly fits in.

what strikes me as odd is that we're never actually introduced to any of these grassroots musicians, these small bands, on this thread but assured of the difficulty they're having. all the bands whose difficulties are detailed here are people who have full-timers on their staff or have come through oxbridge or sometimes both.

 

[story]

I'm giving an example of how hard it is to provide proof of purchase for multiple items that you may have purchased years ago. I'm sorry if that went over your head.

It's going back many years but I remember the carnet we filled in was waaay bigger than three pages and we nearly missed a gig after being held up at the German/Austria border while all the gear was ordered out of the van and checked.

I recall the ongoing concern, like waiting for exam results, when sending a band out with a carnet, hoping it was all correct, fearing I’d missed out a single lead or packet of strings.

 

[TopCat]

I'm giving an example of how hard it is to provide proof of purchase for multiple items that you may have purchased years ago. I'm sorry if that went over your head.

I can see this being a problem for many musicians. Loads acquire their instruments second hand and don't probably get receipts when they pay for a guitar from one who could no longer struggle.

 

[story]

I keep starting to write replies to some of this and then end up deleting cos it’s kinda pointless. Like trying to explain scuba diving to someone who doesn't swim. Or driving to someone who can’t. Some of these posts really do feel like backseat driving.


Things that look fairly straightforward from the outside are usually way more complex once you get inside them. Especially when you’re talking about a creative endeavour that involves multiple sometimes disorganised people travelling long distances and often across several borders, with everything they need to put on a show for people who’ve paid to be there, take care of the business side of things both on the day on the road and back home, answer to various government bodies, deal with the physical mental and emotional welfare of the people putting on the show, look after expensive electrical and musical equipment, make money doing it, be punctual, all whilst working hard to make the entire circus appear to be effortless.

 

[Pickman's model]

I keep starting to write replies to some of this and then end up deleting cos it’s kinda pointless. Like trying to explain scuba diving to someone who doesn't swim. Or driving to someone who can’t. Some of these posts really do feel like backseat driving.


Things that look fairly straightforward from the outside are usually way more complex once you get inside them. Especially when you’re talking about a creative endeavour that involves multiple sometimes disorganised people travelling long distances and often across several borders, with everything they need to put on a show for people who’ve paid to be there, take care of the business side of things both on the day on the road and back home, answer to various government bodies, deal with the physical mental and emotional welfare of the people putting on the show, look after expensive electrical and musical equipment, make money doing it, be punctual, all whilst working hard to make the entire circus appear to be effortless.

not to mention the merch