Brexit - impact on musicians, touring and the music/events industry

[TopCat]

Absolutely. I promote shows myself from time to time - I've never made a profit, and often have to pay some expenses out of my own pocket - I would not be able to do it at all if I had to find hundreds of pounds out of the ether each time I did it. It's always upfront what the situation is though, and most of the people who play the nights I do are regular performers.

Music performance exists on a continuum that runs from fun hobby to multi-million pound concerns, and most musicians are very aware of where they sit on that continuum - it's silly to demand that union minimums could or should apply to niche music with a very limited audience, or to new bands with no fans or performance experience.

Unless you can find a load of extra money that isn't coming from door tax or bar takings for these performers from somewhere, if you enforce union minimum rates then niche music performers and new bands simply wouldn't get to perform at all.

Ok so you don’t support paying MU rates for the reasons you mention. The bit about everyone knows up front is no justification by the way. Lots of employers said this about not paying minimum wage.

Do you think the musicians should at least get minimum wage?

 

[killer b]

sure.

 

[editor]

This argument was used a lot to oppose the introduction of the UK’s minimum wage. Im not surprised to see it advanced here.

But could you explain how a pub/small venue -most of which are already struggling - might be able to continue putting on live shows if they have to start paying bands MU rates? How much do you think it would then cost to put on a three band bill at a small venue, and where do you think all the additional money required would come from?

Especially amongst people who would not join a union.

Which people, specifically?

 

[The39thStep]

I see no reason why this thread should change. merge or move. It's in the music forum and it's all about the impact of Brexit on musicians and the music industry.


If you want to keep going on about silversmiths and Brexit, maybe you should start your own thread in the appropriate forum.

No I agree best keep this seperate

 

[ddraig]

"Gaslighting" is it?

How about you respond to my actual post rather than what you imagine I've written?

You're just trying to get in on the pile on tho, belatedly as per

 

[TopCat]

But could you explain how a pub/small venue -most of which are already struggling - might be able to continue putting on live shows if they have to start paying bands MU rates? How much do you think it would then cost to put on a three band bill at a small venue, and where do you think all the additional money required would come from?

Which people, specifically?

You and the little baby Jesus specifically.

So let’s look at this thread in summary.
Please have solidarity with musicians over brexit touring restrictions.
Don’t have solidarity with musicians who don’t get paid even the minimum wage by promoters.
Don’t join the MU as they don’t support small bands and do take a dim view of bands not being paid.

 

[editor]

Absolutely. I promote shows myself from time to time - I've never made a profit, and often have to pay some expenses out of my own pocket - I would not be able to do it at all if I had to find hundreds of pounds out of the ether each time I did it. It's always upfront what the situation is though, and most of the people who play the nights I do are regular performers.

Music performance exists on a continuum that runs from fun hobby to multi-million pound concerns, and most musicians are very aware of where they sit on that continuum - it's silly to demand that union minimums could or should apply to niche music with a very limited audience, or to new bands with no fans or performance experience.

Unless you can find a load of extra money that isn't coming from door tax or bar takings for these performers from somewhere, if you enforce union minimum rates then niche music performers and new bands simply wouldn't get to perform at all.

Pretty much the same for me. When I started my nights in Brixton I was working with a microscopic budget so I'd be upfront with bands and tell them exactly what was on offer - a well promoted, packed gig with a great crowd, plus beers, photos and post-gig publicity. I bought the PA system out of my own money and then added backline over time, so bands could get the tube to the gig.

Almost every band I approached were more than happy to go along with that arrangement, and those that played usually enjoyed the gig so much they became regulars on the bill. So everyone was happy including TopCat who came along to many shows.

As the nights got more popular and I was able to get more budget from the venues, I was initially able to cover all the band's expenses, and then pay them more. I made very little money from all the work I put in, but it was rewarding being able to offer the opportunity for local people to see great bands for free, and for giving bands a great gig to play.

If I had to pay MU rates, the gig would never have happened.

 

[editor]

You and the little baby Jesus specifically.

I've been in a paid up member of a union for 15 years. You can apologise now, if you like.

 

[TopCat]

You posted on these boards here several times that you paid a pint approx per performer at your Offline gigs at the Albert in Brixton.

Shall I do a search? It was a decade ago so no worries if you forgot.

So bullshit or truth? I thought as you called bullshit you might clarify?

 

[editor]

So bullshit or truth? I thought as you called bullshit you might clarify?

Why don't you ask the bands who've played there? You could start with ATOMIC SUPLEX and rutabowa

At the beginning - like 16 years ago - I had virtually zero budget but I made sure every performer was happy. And they were.

Edit to add: it's really disappointing how you constantly try to drag this discussion about Brexit down to a nasty, personal point scoring level. How much I paid bands in a small venue in Brixton 16 years ago really has nothing to do with anything, neither does your incorrect assumption that I'm not in a union.

 

[andysays]

But could you explain how a pub/small venue -most of which are already struggling - might be able to continue putting on live shows if they have to start paying bands MU rates? How much do you think it would then cost to put on a three band bill at a small venue, and where do you think all the additional money required would come from?

If it's the case that venues are unable to pay musicians a reasonable amount of money to put on a live show (and this has already been argued on this thread, as has the fact that for many smallish/just starting out bands, they can't make enough money to live playing in the UK, or even, apparently, playing in the rest of Europe without depending on the money from merchandise sales), that suggests that, despite your denials, there was a problem with the industry before Brexit and Covid.

The additional money required can presumably only come from people being prepared to pay more to watch live bands, and if there isn't the audience prepared to support it, there won't be sufficient money to pay anything like a living wage to everyone who wants to make a living that way. Where do you think the additional money could or should come from?

I'm sure that most of those musicians aren't in it primarily for the money, but if they choose to continue in this way, touring when it's not really economical, playing "showcase" gigs for nothing in the hope it will lead to something bigger, etc, they can't really complain when they fail to make a decent living at it.

 

[TopCat]

I've been in a paid up member of a union for 15 years. You can apologise now, if you like.

Institute of Directors?

 

[TopCat]

editor. Thanks for clarifying that my recollection of you paying performers a beer to perform was correct.

It’s probably best not to deny with insults what you wrote on these boards btw.

So perhaps be a bit thoughtful before you get on your high horse.

 

[ddraig]

Institute of Directors?

Why are you doing this?

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

TBH it seems pretty clear to me that at the lower levels it's not really an industry at all and there isn't an employer/employee relationship between promoters and bands. It's more of a mutual hobby type of relationship isn't it really. So personally I wouldn't say bands should necessarily get minimum wage. Of course it's a grey line because at a bigger level it definitely is an industry and acts tend to aspire to being part of that.

 

[andysays]

Institute of Directors?

You're being a bit of a cunt now.

Maybe time to wind your neck in?

 

[TopCat]

Why are you doing

We are asked to show solidarity and sympathy for people who don’t join a union and pay a pittance, below minimum wage to others.

 

[TopCat]

You're being a bit of a cunt now.

Maybe time to wind your neck in?

Fair enough from you mate. I don’t bother engaging with him lately. I will apply that harder.

 

[ddraig]

We are asked to show solidarity and sympathy for people who don’t join a union and pay a pittance, below minimum wage to others.

Do you think the bands and gigs you've enjoyed would have happened if your hard and fast rules were applied?

 

[andysays]

We are asked to show solidarity and sympathy for people who don’t join a union and pay a pittance, below minimum wage to others.

If you're trying to paint editor as a capitalist exploiting the workers, I think you're going to struggle.

I think much of his position on this is misguided, but you're just being ridiculous now.

 

[killer b]

If it's the case that venues are unable to pay musicians a reasonable amount of money to put on a live show (and this has already been argued on this thread, as has the fact that for many smallish/just starting out bands, they can't make enough money to live playing in the UK, or even, apparently, playing in the rest of Europe without depending on the money from merchandise sales), that suggests that, despite your denials, there was a problem with the industry before Brexit and Covid.

The additional money required can presumably only come from people being prepared to pay more to watch live bands, and if there isn't the audience prepared to support it, there won't be sufficient money to pay anything like a living wage to everyone who wants to make a living that way. Where do you think the additional money could or should come from?

Popularity can't be the only metric that counts - the money could come from the fruits of the music industry being shared more equally than they are at the moment, through arts policy that recognises the 'winners' of the music industry are only able to do so because of a (pretty delicate) ecosystem that nurtures them and allows them to succeed at all. It's not perfect anywhere, but funding for underground music performances elsewhere in Europe does attempt to do some things about this. The Arts Council here has caught on a bit in recent years, but it's still pretty thin and there's not a lot of money available.

 

[andysays]

Fair enough from you mate. I don’t bother engaging with him lately. I will apply that harder.

Fair enough from you too.

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think your personalisation of it and attacks on editor are reasonable, nor are they helping your argument

 

[andysays]

Popularity can't be the only metric that counts - the money could come from the fruits of the music industry being shared more equally than they are at the moment, through arts policy that recognises the 'winners' of the music industry are only able to do so because of a (pretty delicate) ecosystem that nurtures them and allows them to succeed at all. It's not perfect anywhere, but funding for underground music performances elsewhere in Europe does attempt to do some things about this. The Arts Council here has caught on a bit in recent years, but it's still pretty thin and there's not a lot of money available.

That's a reasonable position, and certainly makes more sense to me than blaming Brexit for what we should all recognise are long term structural issues rather than simply the result of Brexit

 

[editor]

Institute of Directors?

You're just embarrassing yourself now. Look what other posters are saying about you. .

editor. Thanks for clarifying that my recollection of you paying performers a beer to perform was correct.

It’s probably best not to deny with insults what you wrote on these boards btw.

So perhaps be a bit thoughtful before you get on your high horse.

I don't think I ever only paid a performer one single pint unless they weren't drinking or something. Most nights we got a crate of beer in for the bands and everyone got happily drunk. And as I explained that was only at the very start - as soon as the budget increased I made sure bands got a share.

But if the bands were happy, the venue was happy and the crowd was happy - what's it got to do with you anyway?

And what has a small gig in a pub sixteen years ago got to do with this discussion, anyway? You're just desperately flailing around to score cheap, nasty personal points and it's not a good look.

We are asked to show solidarity and sympathy for people who don’t join a union and pay a pittance, below minimum wage to others.

Yet you were only to happy to enjoy the free entertainment on offer at those nights, week after week.

 

[killer b]

That's a reasonable position, and certainly makes more sense to me than blaming Brexit for what we should all recognise are long term structural issues rather than simply the result of Brexit

It's ok to complain about things that make an already-existing difficult situation more difficult isn't it?

 

[editor]

If it's the case that venues are unable to pay musicians a reasonable amount of money to put on a live show (and this has already been argued on this thread, as has the fact that for many smallish/just starting out bands, they can't make enough money to live playing in the UK, or even, apparently, playing in the rest of Europe without depending on the money from merchandise sales), that suggests that, despite your denials, there was a problem with the industry before Brexit and Covid.

The additional money required can presumably only come from people being prepared to pay more to watch live bands, and if there isn't the audience prepared to support it, there won't be sufficient money to pay anything like a living wage to everyone who wants to make a living that way. Where do you think the additional money could or should come from?

I'm sure that most of those musicians aren't in it primarily for the money, but if they choose to continue in this way, touring when it's not really economical, playing "showcase" gigs for nothing in the hope it will lead to something bigger, etc, they can't really complain when they fail to make a decent living at it.

A lot of people can't afford to pay to see live music. That's why my club nights (like this website) were free to all.

And if the bands and DJs were happy with that arrangement, why should they waste money signing up to the MU who would effectively ban such gigs?

And no, Brexit has made things considerably worse for bands who tour Europe. Many have lost a major source of income that helped them finance loss making/low paid gigs in the UK.

Ideally the arts would get proper government funding but from some of the attitudes expressed here it looks like some people would rather musicians just give up and get a proper job.

 

[ska invita]

TBH it seems pretty clear to me that at the lower levels it's not really an industry at all and there isn't an employer/employee relationship between promoters and bands. It's more of a mutual hobby type of relationship isn't it really. So personally I wouldn't say bands should necessarily get minimum wage. Of course it's a grey line because at a bigger level it definitely is an industry and acts tend to aspire to being part of that.

Exactly this.
I think I've been paid money to DJ twice in my life. I'm always up for DJing for free as it's a hobby. That includes festival gigs.

Hoping in 2022 to put more nights on and DJ at them. I'll actually lose money on it and no one will get paid.
That's fine because it's for fun not work.
If ever there's money to be made from it it will get shared

To graduate from hobby to professional is really hard. Music business as a career performer is really hard to break into it. You don't get there by going to an interview.

Unlike other jobs you don't have a contract, you don't have a boss, there aren't terms and conditions, there aren't minimum hours.
To try and compare it with standard jobs isn't comparing like for like.

 

[mojo pixy]

Thing is .. playing live music (especially playing in a band/project of your own devise, for your very own self-expression and nothing more) is its own reward, in a way working in a supermarket or a care home or a factory or driving a taxi or delivering food isn't. No stage there, no rider, no audience applause, no drugs, no interviews, no fans telling you you're awesome.

That has to be recognized, in any talk of Solidarity, in this context. As least, it's a disruption to the (traditional?) idea that ''a worker'' is someone who sells their labour to an employer and does not control their own means of production. Playing in a Band isn't Selling Labour, and The Band control their own Means of Production. Models of Solidarity I understand don't fit too well, I have to confess.

Empathy, yes. I can only hope as many people as possible keep an income coming in from somewhere. Upthread I've said what I can practically do to help, it's not much but it's there.

 

[editor]

Exactly this.
I think I've been paid money to DJ twice in my life. I'm always up for DJing for free as it's a hobby. That includes festival gigs.

Hoping in 2022 to put more nights on and DJ at them. I'll actually lose money on it and no one will get paid.
That's fine because it's for fun not work.
If ever there's money to be made from it it will get shared

To graduate from hobby to professional is really hard. Music business as a career performer is really hard to break into it. You don't get there by going to an interview.

Unlike other jobs you don't have a contract, you don't have a boss, there aren't terms and conditions, there aren't minimum hours.
To try and compare it with standard jobs isn't comparing like for like.

I've done loads of free gigs/DJ sets at fundraisers/benefits and so long as I get a beer or two I'm a happy bunny. I've much, much less likely to agree if it's a regular gig and they're charging on the door (unless it's helping out a mate).

 

[editor]

No stage there, no rider, no audience applause, no drugs, no interviews, no fans telling you you're awesome.

Sadly there's not always a guarantee of any of the above when you're playing a pub gig.