"Blacked up" Morris dancers forced to flee during performance

[danny la rouge]

googled
Laura Greenwood, Fangs For Nothing

A quote from Fangs For Nothing

Tradition is just peer pressure from dead people, William,

www.goodreads.com

Never heard of her! But she deserves the credit; it’s a good line.

 

[A380]

But what about people who say black women shouldn’t straighten their hair? Both other black people and white people of the left who say it’s like collaboration with white culture and those ( TBF racist nutters in the states) who say it’s cultural appropriation.


I think it’s bollocks and people should be free to do whatever they want with their hair. But am I wrong if some people feel it’s racist?

 

[ska invita]

But what about people who say black women shouldn’t straighten their hair? Both other black people and white people of the left who say it’s like collaboration with white culture and those ( TBF racist nutters in the states) who say it’s cultural appropriation.


I think it’s bollocks and people should be free to do whatever they want with their hair. But am I wrong if some people feel it’s racist?

cultural appropriation is a minefield and needs its own thread IMO as theres so much to talk through
in short though I think some people take the argument way too puritanically, there's a lot of grey area, I think usually best judged by intent

 

[A380]

cultural appropriation is a minefield and needs its own thread IMO as theres so much to talk through
in short though I think some people take the argument way too puritanically, there's a lot of grey area, I think usually best judged by intent

But if we judged people by intent there would be all sorts of horrible language being used my many white elderly people who gre up with what is now unacceptable ‘coloured’ and ‘half caste’ which is now completely inappropriate even if they use it innocently they need to be put right.

Like wise morris dancers with soot on their faces.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Traditions can change with the times surely? You could (maybe for instance) make the black face orange, purple or black and white (a la star trek) to highlight that some sort of colour used to be applied, but any inappropriate racial connotations were no longer tolerated.

 

[Sasaferrato]

But what about people who say black women shouldn’t straighten their hair? Both other black people and white people of the left who say it’s like collaboration with white culture and those ( TBF racist nutters in the states) who say it’s cultural appropriation.


I think it’s bollocks and people should be free to do whatever they want with their hair. But am I wrong if some people feel it’s racist?

Well, if a white woman is called out for cultural appropriation for putting their hair in corn rows, then black women who straighten their hair are equally 'guilty'. Quite how this utter fucking bollocks came to prominence, fuck knows. Who gives a toss what someone does with their hair?

 

[Sasaferrato]

Traditions can change with the times surely? You could (maybe for instance) make the black face orange, purple or black and white (a la star trek) to highlight that some sort of colour used to be applied, but any inappropriate racial connotations were no longer tolerated.

I saw a pic yesterday with a Morris group with green face paint, solves the problem.

 

[kabbes]

But what about people who say black women shouldn’t straighten their hair? Both other black people and white people of the left who say it’s like collaboration with white culture and those ( TBF racist nutters in the states) who say it’s cultural appropriation.


I think it’s bollocks and people should be free to do whatever they want with their hair. But am I wrong if some people feel it’s racist?

If it is commonly seen and discussed as racist then it is racist. Racism isn't some reified, objective reality that exists outside of its social context. It's the practices that society collectively agrees are racist.

 

[seeformiles]

Another troupe went blue earlier this year:

May Day morris dancers swap black face paint for blue over concerns of racism

Cross-county group Joint Morris Organisations called for end to use of full-face black makeup in 2020

www.theguardian.com

 

[Athos]

If it is commonly seen and discussed as racist then it is racist. Racism isn't some reified, objective reality that exists outside of its social context. It's the practices that society collectively agrees are racist.

There isn't a consensus around some of the more 'out there' cultural appropriation stuff.

 

[kabbes]

There isn't a consensus around some of the more 'out there' cultural appropriation stuff.

And hence there is no consensus to whether it is racist or not, meaning that individuals will have to judge for themselves based on context and social interaction

The stupid thing is expecting this stuff to be in some kind of inviolate manual to be consulted now and for all time.

 

[Peter Painter]

So I do think there is a tradition of using soot on your face that isn’t to do with impersonating Africans, but the connotations are such that there’s no need to continue those traditions, and it’s just perverse to hold out. What for? Tradition is just peer pressure from dead people.

It doesn’t really matter what something was, it only matters what it is. And what it is is whatever people perceive it to be, based on the narratives, culture, mores and customs of the time. Blacking your face in today’s context has certain connotations and is perceived in certain ways. You can’t be ignorant of that, which means you are doing it in full awareness of that perception. In turn, that means that regardless of what it was, it now is something racist.

I agree with both of you that despite any tradition, even those which have no racial connotations, there is no place in our society anymore for white people blackening their faces. And I agree that this is a good thing.

However, I think that the past matters very much and that it is important to recognise and remember that the blackening of faces was often done in effort to disguise or camouflage (at night) and was in no way racist.

The 1723 Black Act had nothing to do with race but was instead the state's merciless response to gangs of poachers (notably the Waltham Blacks) who blackened their faces to help evade capture.

Whilst it is important to try to eradicate racism from society it is also important not to consider things in a binary or (and excuse the pun) in a black and white manner. Sure, blackening up is now considered racist but in the past, whilst much of it was racist, much of it also was not.

I am concerned by the totalitarian nature of political correctness; that it pays no heed to context or nuance, and that it has a tendency to attempt to rewrite history.

 

[danny la rouge]

If it is commonly seen and discussed as racist then it is racist. Racism isn't some reified, objective reality that exists outside of its social context. It's the practices that society collectively agrees are racist.

That’s not quite the same as how I see it.

First, the practicalities: if people see something as racist, don’t do it unless you want to show yourself up as a dick.

“It didn’t used to be racist”. Well it is now, so stop being a dick.

Secondly, the analysis: race exists because of racism, not the other way around.

 

[ska invita]

But if we judged people by intent there would be all sorts of horrible language being used my many white elderly people who gre up with what is now unacceptable ‘coloured’ and ‘half caste’ which is now completely inappropriate even if they use it innocently they need to be put right.

Like wise morris dancers with soot on their faces.

like i said its too complex to get into without doing so at length, no easy answer, loads of grey area, case by case examples, doesnt lend itself to blanket policy

 

[killer b]

However, I think that the past matters very much and that it is important to recognise and remember that the blackening of faces was often done in effort to disguise or camouflage (at night) and was in no way racist.

This specific question has been discussed in detail several times in the course of this ten page thread.

 

[isvicthere?]

Blacked up Morris dancers flee after threats near Bullring

So, old English tradition that should be respected or dodgy racism with bells on?

A use of the former to (try to) get away with being the latter.

 

[Peter Painter]

This specific question has been discussed in detail several times in the course of this ten page thread.

I only read the recent posts. Sorry.

Will read the whole thread. And probably find that my post was superfluous!

 

[Magnus McGinty]

like i said its too complex to get into without doing so at length, no easy answer, loads of grey area, case by case examples, doesnt lend itself to blanket policy

A starting point might be looking at the notion of culture somehow being intellectual property.

 

[ska invita]

A starting point might be looking at the notion of culture somehow being intellectual property.

its about sensitivity not property
it would be an interesting thread on urban, ive thought of starting it before, but in the past it felt like it would get ugly quickly

 

[Sasaferrato]

Siege of Vienna - Wikipedia
So 'ere's to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, at your 'ome in the Soudan;
You're a pore benighted 'eathen but a first-class fightin' man;
An' 'ere's to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, with your 'ayrick 'ead of 'air -
You big black boundin' beggar - for you broke a British square!
Poems - Fuzzy-Wuzzy
I suspect originally this black face bollocks was actually about respect

cant get a more detailed pic, will keep digging, these memoriels in the Kyber are not just for their own dead, but in respect for the "men in skirts that they fought"!!!!
Hard to describe the joy of this

It seems to date from a time where a mans honour was respected despite all other differences

PS Just wish they were playing Johnny Cope!!!!

The pipes came from India, or that direction anyway, originally.

That is a good band, fitness levels through the roof. Try bimbling about like that for six minutes, then try it whilst blowing up a balloon.

 

[Peter Painter]

It's a fucking weird cross. There's a lot of anti Catholic stuff but they also burn effigies of enemies of Bonfire, who can be all sorts. One year they burnt Bush and Bin Laden for example. They've burnt bankers and Prime Ministers.

And gypsies.

Gypsy caravan burned in village bonfire

Police are investigating claims of racism in an East Sussex village after residents attending a bonfire party burned a caravan with pictures of Gypsies painted on it.

www.theguardian.com

Edit: this is superfluous too, somebody else mentions it a little further in the thread! Think I'm gonna give up now!

 

[A380]

A use of the former to (try to) get away with being the latter.

Your evidence of that? Or is it your opinion?

 

[A380]

…The stupid thing is expecting this stuff to be in some kind of inviolate manual to be consulted now and for all time.

Trouble is lots of people think that is the case. TBF many are white and middle class, but it is not a view held by a tiny minority.

 

[isvicthere?]

Your evidence of that? Or is it your opinion?

Not so much my opinion as my suspicion.

 

[A380]

Not so much my opinion as my suspicion.

So no evidence then . Fair enough. After all it developed from a white working class tradition so you can be fairly safe to declare it racist based on your suspicions.

 

[A380]

its about sensitivity not property
it would be an interesting thread on urban, ive thought of starting it before, but in the past it felt like it would get ugly quickly

I think it would be an interesting topic in P&P.

 

[ska invita]

I think it would be an interesting topic in P&P.

go for it! start a thread

 

[A380]

go for it! start a thread

For some unexplained reason no one takes my threads seriously…

 

[danny la rouge]

For some unexplained reason no one takes my threads seriously…

Does this one not work for you?

 

[A380]

Does this one not work for you?

That’s not one of mine…