malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
hope you dont mind but ive used the phrase in a couple of other contexts. its a good handle!
Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action
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hope you dont mind but ive used the phrase in a couple of other contexts. its a good handle!
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
this is what bothers me and why cross referencing is essential. although it is difficult given the small maount of antifascist literature and the difficlty of accessing things like red action and fighting talk. didnt someone put the red action stuff on a cd or am i still drunk?
MellySingsDoom
Decimated by the shrapnel of his rhetoric
Both butchersapron and Fozzie Bear put together an upload file of various issues of "Fighting Talk" etc a while ago - I think it's on this thread if I remember correctly.
Edit: Found it - http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...ti-fascist-action.251690/page-34#post-9164409
love detective is right too - it's not a complete set of issues.
love detective
there's no love too small
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
thanks for the links. getting started on the 'malatesta' book next week so this is invaluable research.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
I am a long time Croydonite. I recollect NF paper sales in St Georges Walk on a Saturday in the early eighties. It was almost always youngsters who were up front holding the papers. it used to be a bit of a squabble as to who got to give them a few digs. This was not by organised lefties but a few anarchists, locals lads, generally outraged passers by.
They gave up the regular papers sales not long after their bookshop in Pawson's Road got fucked off by the Council. This place was just over the road from my school (Selhurst Boys) and it was a popular pastime to go there in the lunch hour mob handed and smash up their scooters and exchange a few punches. I got a proper beating off of some NF types from the bookshop in about 1981/2. This was revenge for me splodging chips on Martin Webster's head and then wearing him out by running round and round in circles as he chased me, then kicking him up the bum when he was puffed out.
I don't know the Ship in Katherine Street, do you not mean a pub of the same name in the High Street? This pub was/is no NF strong hold though. More a studenty come rock pub with an excellent range of bitters.
Later on in the 80's and right up to the late nineties there was a problem with the NF (I think it was the not the BNP) forcing mainly Asian newsagents to stock their paper. It was hard to get the cooperation of the newsagents to do anything about this, they never knew when they were coming back and did not want fights in/near their shops or revenge attacks.
MellySingsDoom
Decimated by the shrapnel of his rhetoric
TopCat - re The Ship - yeah, it was round the corner from Katherine Street, that's the one. When I knew all about it (from '86 onwards) it was definitely a racist pub - a mate of mine got racially abused by some skinhead arsehole right by there (co-incidence, huh?), and the landlord tried for a while to put on bands there, but insisted on only all-white bands playing - I know this cos someone I knew asked about doing gigs there, and ended up getting into a barney w/the landlord about it. Everyone I knew avoided the place, by and large - there were other drinking opportunities in Croydon, anyway. I for one was not sorry to see the place close down - the pubs on Surrey Street were nicer for a proper pub atmosphere 
The St Georges Walk thing - was that at the top or bottom end, out of interest? I'm guessing it would be the bottom end where H&R Cloake was round the corner...the NF paper/Asian shops thing sounds strange, in that from what I can gather, the NF Croydon lot defected to the BNP in 92/93, and didn't Anderson throw in the towel w/"The Flag" in '94??? Mind you, I wouldn't put anything past the NF re the bullying behaviour, that sounds well horrible.
If I ever bump into you "offline", I'll buy you a pint of whatever you're having for sacrifing your chips on Webster's bonce and giving him the run-around
The St Georges Walk thing - was that at the top or bottom end, out of interest? I'm guessing it would be the bottom end where H&R Cloake was round the corner...the NF paper/Asian shops thing sounds strange, in that from what I can gather, the NF Croydon lot defected to the BNP in 92/93, and didn't Anderson throw in the towel w/"The Flag" in '94??? Mind you, I wouldn't put anything past the NF re the bullying behaviour, that sounds well horrible.
If I ever bump into you "offline", I'll buy you a pint of whatever you're having for sacrifing your chips on Webster's bonce and giving him the run-around
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
'This was revenge for me splodging chips on Martin Webster's head and then wearing him out by running round and round in circles as he chased me, then kicking him up the bum when he was puffed out.'
Thats gold! its gotta go in the malatesta book! masterrace indeed eh?
Thats gold! its gotta go in the malatesta book! masterrace indeed eh?
Just so you know what info to depend on,for your book, and what not to trust, Malatesta....
I can assure you that most of what Tilzey writes in BTF, certainly up to 1987, is pretty accurate. OK, some events described are amalgamations of a number of separate events, and not all people cited were at specific events (eg, Tilzey wasn't at the Battle of Piccadilly --he really WAS that Saturday working on the fishstall, which made his alibi cast iron !), BUT it's still a pretty accurate description of that era. Pity to discount all of BTF because of the Hann controversy.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Good news - but can someone explain how I can save/open the AFA Zip file? Apols but I'm a bit crap with this sort of stuff.
MellySingsDoom
Decimated by the shrapnel of his rhetoric
You can download an open source ZIP file opener thingym and once that's installed, click on the ZIP file and away you go! (WinZIP is pretty good for that).
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Err right - I'll have a go. Thanks for the help
love detective
there's no love too small
miktheword
Well-Known Member
Ayatollah, re your last line..do you mean 'pity to discount all of No Retreat'..due to Hann etc?
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
cheers ayatollah! the amount of books dealing with this area is woefully small but by cross referencing helps clarify, ie, collins account of stockport and Tilz's help you get the picture. what is most useful is the 1st person accounts on places like this, especially topcat's story about webster and chips. thats just hilarious!
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
LD, there is quite a bit of uncollated stuff that antifascists have on AFA/RA (press cuttings, posters, pix) that is in danger of disappearing. just thinking but is there any chance of getting the website with RA and fighting talk on but which can also receive and upload images that folk send in? many antifascists have bits and pieces that are in pretty poor condition and an online antifascist resource site wd be fantastic. the malatestas still mourn the passing of the typewriter and are techno-klutzes and cant do this kind of thing. anyone?
Yes Sorry, Brainfade I'm afraid- Yes I MEANT to say that not ALL of NO RETREAT should be discounted just because of all the hoo hah about Hann's bit of the book. I can't verify the post 1987 bit of NR though on Tilzey's behalf - the Searchlight bit, as I wasn't around - and that bit seems to be the controversial bit for his contribution too.
Sorry about the "senior moment" confusion on my part !
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bignose1
Searchlight Spoiler
JP,the Searchlight bit is controversial. Cos Denis and O'Shea say so. Fair cop guv.
Hi Bignose,
Whatever did or didn't happen in the "Searchlight phase" I know that you are an active trades unionist, shop steward, in the public sector, fighting the bosses' attacks for your members, so you are still in there in the Class Struggle, mate, which is more than I am, or many others are, nowadays. So we should all maybe look to the present rather than rake over the ashes of the dead past.
Solidarity in action, that's all that is needed as the crisis bites, mate.
Whatever did or didn't happen in the "Searchlight phase" I know that you are an active trades unionist, shop steward, in the public sector, fighting the bosses' attacks for your members, so you are still in there in the Class Struggle, mate, which is more than I am, or many others are, nowadays. So we should all maybe look to the present rather than rake over the ashes of the dead past.
Solidarity in action, that's all that is needed as the crisis bites, mate.
bignose1
Searchlight Spoiler
JP Its always been my way that the struggle is greater than the individual and that RA apart Ive never been in a 'party' But then thats perhaps been my downfall, trying to please everyone, be everyones mate,colleague,brother,comrade. Its a noble stance but then you put yourself on offer. Ive even got Utd mates who have a go at me because Im pals with some of Citys lads. Ive got some mates hovering around th EDL. Ill try and get through to them...why chanting Munch, Hillsborough and galatassary is wrong and all Pakis are Alqueda and therefore are sus is shite. Always for me a class thing but far from being choosy and on the other hand too 'united front' Ive the respect of many quarters in the movement for being non sectarian*, thats not blowing my own trumpet thats because my TU work, anti racist work and anti capitalist stance has been solid, so where this washed out and fucked thing comes from Im not sure but my colleagues who Ive defended in Unison recently might differ. *(And that doesnt exclude the Labour twats who sold us out and who are culpable and should be told.) JP you talk a lot of sense on here which if people read means your still involved..you have my repect.
bignose1
Searchlight Spoiler
Sorry not sure what you mean by that....the Searchlight stuff was a meaningful part of my anti fascist life. I spent time in Scandinavia and helped Stieg Larsson and his colleagues set up an anti-fascist network and on the other hnd would speak to half a dozen schoolkids in an Openshaw youth club. I had no agenda other than to continue to make my city a no go area for organsied fascists. And if I could help further afield then thats a bonus. Ill tell you what..Ive not got a big nose for nowt. Id have smelt an agenda led rat a mile away. Thats not to say Ive no politics or ideology I mean the 'carve out' type of stuff that littered the left. Not for me matey. If you want to ask specific questions about my Searchlight involvement with which you have a problem fine...ask me and i might answer them. But dont generalise or create an 'explanation' to suit.
Get me a bucket..............
bignose1
Searchlight Spoiler
bignose1
Searchlight Spoiler
TopCat
Putin fanboy
I regard Searchlight as dogs. Not progressive but dogs.
Interesting, and worrying, article on Reuters today - about the French Far Right FN capitalising on the endless destructive antics of international Finance Capital to build its support base. Nothing new about that of course - and we all know that when identifying , correctly, Finance capital , as a major culprit in the current world crisis - the fascists really mean Jewish Finance capitalism - and so all the old 1930's issues once again surface.
Same old, same old , there then , but the article was also looking at the phenomenum of previous Far Leftists also moving over to the FN :
Reuters quote:
"Fabien Engelmann, a 32-year old municipal plumber with tight-cropped hair, was an activist with France's leading trade union and a Trotskyist for many years. Later he joined the far-left "New Anticapitalist Party." This year he switched party again, but not on a leftist ticket.
He joined France's famed far-right National Front, and he was not the only one."
All very familiar from the German 1930's experience too of course - whole fighting units of the Brownshirts and the Left swapped loyalties then as the struggle ebbed and flowed - assisted by the often apparent left face presented by the Nazis to the Brownshirt followers (until the wake up call on the Night of the Long Knives in 1934 of course !)
This should be a wake up call in the UK on the Left of the danger of apparently solid socialists/radicals in a deep social crisis being tempted to the Right by the siren voices of pseudo Leftish rhetoric that the likes of the BNP and EDL are capable of.
I fear that any radical individual or group that abandons the underlying political principals of socialism in its broadest sense, despite all the problems we all understand with the record of socialism historically - not least the "elephant in the room "- of Stalinism, will be particularly prey to follow eventually the route to the Right exhibitted by the examples in the Reuters report as the current crisis goes into its next phases of economic breakdown.
Same old, same old , there then , but the article was also looking at the phenomenum of previous Far Leftists also moving over to the FN :
Reuters quote:
"Fabien Engelmann, a 32-year old municipal plumber with tight-cropped hair, was an activist with France's leading trade union and a Trotskyist for many years. Later he joined the far-left "New Anticapitalist Party." This year he switched party again, but not on a leftist ticket.
He joined France's famed far-right National Front, and he was not the only one."
All very familiar from the German 1930's experience too of course - whole fighting units of the Brownshirts and the Left swapped loyalties then as the struggle ebbed and flowed - assisted by the often apparent left face presented by the Nazis to the Brownshirt followers (until the wake up call on the Night of the Long Knives in 1934 of course !)
This should be a wake up call in the UK on the Left of the danger of apparently solid socialists/radicals in a deep social crisis being tempted to the Right by the siren voices of pseudo Leftish rhetoric that the likes of the BNP and EDL are capable of.
I fear that any radical individual or group that abandons the underlying political principals of socialism in its broadest sense, despite all the problems we all understand with the record of socialism historically - not least the "elephant in the room "- of Stalinism, will be particularly prey to follow eventually the route to the Right exhibitted by the examples in the Reuters report as the current crisis goes into its next phases of economic breakdown.
MellySingsDoom
Decimated by the shrapnel of his rhetoric
ayatollah - I was chatting to frogwoman about this "left/right convergence" yesterday, with regard to a certain bunch of "neofolk" musicians (think "Crisis".....)
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