fucking about with a magnifying glass type thing!!
Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action
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fucking about with a magnifying glass type thing!!
imposs1904
Thread Killa'
Trev 12,604 posts in two and a half years
Nigel 4,547 posts in eight and a half years
Yes, but BTF is a book about Anti-Fascist Action, that funnily enough concentrates on anti-Fascism.
... and yes lots of Red Action people were heavily involved in anti-poll tax stuff, both local and national - as was everybody else back in the day - including that delightful day in Trafalgar Square.
I remember well traversing the urban jungle that was the Divis Flats in Belfast in August 1983. It was Red Action's fist trip over for the Internment weekend. As we crossed a desolate wasteground, a Cockney-Nigerian head appeared out of a window in a block of flats 100 yards away to loudly, and cheefully, cheerfully inform one of our number " 'ere Joe, your house (in Kilburn) has been fackin' petrol-bombed".
This caused much mirth from our lot and lots of confused looks, about this apparent role-reversal, from our Belfast hosts.
Trev 12,604 posts in two and a half years
Nigel 4,547 posts in eight and a half years
i may be sad but not sad enough to research how many posts people make!
aye i got the irony when reading it. They musta been proper mentals though, what sort of gang were they?
imposs1904
Thread Killa'
"research"?
Mmm, yeah looking at the post count for both you and Nigel constitutes heavy going research.
"research"?
Mmm, yeah looking at the post count for both you and Nigel constitutes heavy going research.
i wouldn't even know or care where the post count is. You'd make a great market researcher if you're excited by figures, and get paid for it
It's on the left hand side of every post you make right there under your name
trevhagl
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trevhagl is offline
still hatin' Thatcher
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May 2008
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Forget Trevhagl's issues with the font size, the poor mrs has had to buy herself some ludicrously overpriced designer glasses to read it.
i'm past that stage, no amount of strong glasses would be good enough.....great book though and probably the only one i would go to all this trouble to read!
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
Name another 'hobby' where, after a relatively minor confrontation with an individual described by a Judge in the Old Bailey as an "animal" (and who on a separate occasion hospitalised four prison officers using a metal tray) nevertheless earned the accused a total of 11 years?
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
to be fair aren't there are people around the football hool scene - even unlucky people that got caught up in it - who have got lengthy and/or totally undeserved sentences? I'm not saying btw that there werent times when AFA/RA actions weren't useful/necessary/essential in defensive terms. But at times in the book the politics seems to be an adjunct to the rules of a subcultural scene and pulling in a periphery that wasn't much more political than the raw recruits of any typical football firm.
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
I think you should be thankful that there were some who could pull in a periphery of "working class" people willing to physically confront the fascists. What exactly is the problem with that politically? Many political campaigns such as ANL or Right to work rely on a periphery which doesn't turn up readily politicised. People learn during the struggle and Anti fascism cannot be soley defensive as it would allow the fascists to maintain the iniciative.
Sorry to barge in like this with my first post. I'm half way through the book and have been following this thread to see if political disagreements over strategy come up. So far only complaints about the harshness of the descriptions and that quote above, so not much joy there. The book deserves more respect as it is honest and brings up untold relevant political insights and questions.
Baring in mind the fascist psyche, Is there a more productive anti fascist alternative strategy than that extolled by the book?
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
'rules of a subcultural scene' Ok Professor tells us how it should have been.
'Your lot do 'revolutionary politics' while the rougher end of the market should confine themselves to football hooliganism, bank robbery, beer glass brawling or possibly drug dealing. Is that it? If this is the case, then at best, as well as being a bit of snob, you are remarkably naive. The rougher end of the market has always been involved in radical politics. The core of the 43 Group was made up of 300 ex- commandos. The CP in the 30's was as least as well organised and aggressive as the BUF: 'we knew where to put the razors in the potatoes'. It is only the liberal left who like to pretend that it only the fascists who are low born and violent. '
my stomach is curdling....
my stomach is curdling....
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
Why?
past caring
The Cathars were right
Moved down from the brain?
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
Dismissed as hooligans
It would be really good if someone more articulate were to come along and argue the faults of Squadism from a political standpoint rather than just resorting to cheap jibes steeped in lashings of class prejudice re hooligan culture and all. If you read the book or know anything about AFA you can't fail to see that they had/have a sharp no nonsence political analysis, helped by the common sense that the experience growing up as working class brings. Just on page 147 of the book you have enough food for thought to start a new thread.
I was on the periphery of the SWP 10 years ago. There was a dogma then that Squadism was; A. substituting the working class and B. undemocratic. Hardly Trotsky's point of view.
But they've all read the 43 Group book and liked it.
What I think it boiled down to was they didn't want their boat rocked. They were concerned that bashing the fash would invite retribution and upset their comfortable debates (Which were good incidently). The problem is in the real world the fash once they're big enough are gonna start on you anyway and if you are a revolutionary and can't land a punch on a nazi at least once in your lifetime then you seriously have to reflect on your role as a revolutionary. You can't all be rear guard.
Another thing. I did notice that one of the leading comrade's (at branch level) attitude changed to me after a conversation that went like this;
Question "So, what university did you go to?"
Answer "I didn't".
It would be really good if someone more articulate were to come along and argue the faults of Squadism from a political standpoint rather than just resorting to cheap jibes steeped in lashings of class prejudice re hooligan culture and all. If you read the book or know anything about AFA you can't fail to see that they had/have a sharp no nonsence political analysis, helped by the common sense that the experience growing up as working class brings. Just on page 147 of the book you have enough food for thought to start a new thread.
I was on the periphery of the SWP 10 years ago. There was a dogma then that Squadism was; A. substituting the working class and B. undemocratic. Hardly Trotsky's point of view.
But they've all read the 43 Group book and liked it.
What I think it boiled down to was they didn't want their boat rocked. They were concerned that bashing the fash would invite retribution and upset their comfortable debates (Which were good incidently). The problem is in the real world the fash once they're big enough are gonna start on you anyway and if you are a revolutionary and can't land a punch on a nazi at least once in your lifetime then you seriously have to reflect on your role as a revolutionary. You can't all be rear guard.
Another thing. I did notice that one of the leading comrade's (at branch level) attitude changed to me after a conversation that went like this;
Question "So, what university did you go to?"
Answer "I didn't".
well eat some meat and do some exercise then, you sappy vegan tree-shagger.
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
Music wars
Early on in the book it talks about how there was a series of attacks on punk gigs in the late 70's. Lurkers, Ruts, and Sham's last stand amongst some of them. Is there proof that these attacks were formally planned by the BM or NF or could it have been just that there were loads of skins on the scene who just wanted to start on the punks as part of a night out and did it on their own initiative.
Later on around 83 there was the attempted attack on the Upstarts at the Lyceum that was filmed and looked planned.
Any one see any of it?
Early on in the book it talks about how there was a series of attacks on punk gigs in the late 70's. Lurkers, Ruts, and Sham's last stand amongst some of them. Is there proof that these attacks were formally planned by the BM or NF or could it have been just that there were loads of skins on the scene who just wanted to start on the punks as part of a night out and did it on their own initiative.
Later on around 83 there was the attempted attack on the Upstarts at the Lyceum that was filmed and looked planned.
Any one see any of it?
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
GLC Redskins gig is a good example of planned disruption by the fash, They turned up in Carnaby Street near the NME offices with 'Kick over the Redskins' T shirts the day after
Divisive Cotton
Now I just have my toy soldiers
I was just looking at David Hoffman's photos here: http://archive.hoffmanphotos.com/
They go back a way
David has just won a £30k payout from the Met for accidently on purpose smashing his face in on the G20 protest
They go back a way
David has just won a £30k payout from the Met for accidently on purpose smashing his face in on the G20 protest
Nice one
Well-Known Member
first part of an extended review in Freedom. Asked someone, who was involved in class war/afa back in the day, to give it their critical assessment. Came back with a really good review.
http://www.freedompress.org.uk/news/2010/11/29/a-review-of-%E2%80%9Cbeating-the-fascists-the-untold-history-of-anti-fascist-action%E2%80%9D/
http://www.freedompress.org.uk/news/2010/11/29/a-review-of-%E2%80%9Cbeating-the-fascists-the-untold-history-of-anti-fascist-action%E2%80%9D/
DaveCinzano
WATCH OUT, GEORGE, HE'S GOT A SCREWDRIVER!
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
Lyceum or Astoria?
Yeah, looks to be it. Thought it was Lyceum in the Strand not Astoria, but there you go. Cool footage afterwards of all those dodgy geezers crossing the road. LOL.
In the book it tells about Nick Crane being brought down whilst retreating from Jubilee gardens and grabbing a girl as a sort of human shield? How did that happen? Didn't the fash stick together as they made their way off?
Yeah, looks to be it. Thought it was Lyceum in the Strand not Astoria, but there you go. Cool footage afterwards of all those dodgy geezers crossing the road. LOL.
In the book it tells about Nick Crane being brought down whilst retreating from Jubilee gardens and grabbing a girl as a sort of human shield? How did that happen? Didn't the fash stick together as they made their way off?
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
If this is the Redskins GLC bit? Others can give their recollection but as I remember they ran to both sides of the crowd after they were attacked. My nates and me caught up with some on he right hand side and gave two a smack and then joined other anti fash chasing them into the station.They split and I was with about four/five other people by then who I didn't know when we found two hiding and were giving them a hiding when I got arrested.
At the trial the Police were warned for contempt of court as one officer joked that his memory wasn't very good as he had been doing too much overtime during the miners strike. When one contradicted his mate ( bit of confusion whether I was kicking or punching one and whether it was with my right hand, left or both) the defence solicitor requested that the case be dismissed. The magistrates without retiring said yes, rebuked the officers for their evidence and I asked for £100 loss of earnings etc and got it.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
The Specials at Brunel University in Uxbridge was another , a group of fash including BM had a go but were repulsed, they had a go at a Ruts gig in London which I think was more opportunist and I seem to remember Atiila the Stockbroker getting a battering at a gig but wasn't there.
AFA stewarded a Redskins/ Dead Kennedys gig at the Lyceum ( I think) which we all thought was going to be attacked but nothing happened either there or the way home as I remember.
AFA stewarded a Redskins/ Dead Kennedys gig at the Lyceum ( I think) which we all thought was going to be attacked but nothing happened either there or the way home as I remember.
During the war...
Did they fuck! They did the first time (redskins) but when they came back for seconds (for Hank Wangford!) and the crowd turned on them, it was every bone for himself.
In fairness, the book has this slightly arseways (it was a long time ago) in that the woman he used to shield himself is referred to as 'an anti-fascist' whereas she was just a punter, minding her own business, when the mayhem burst her bubble of tranquility..
Crane just appeared, as some of his mates were getting it, and shouted 'I'm NF! who fuckin wants it?' People actually backed off initially which enraged PC who brought him down with a kind of Rugby tackle.
Crane grabbed a woman who was lying on the ground, sunning herself and enjoying the music. He basically grabbed her round the waist and buried his head into her stomach. This meant he could not be hit to the head. Anxious to get at him, PC was pulling one leg, I was pulling the other. Crane was hanging on for dear life and - as is often the case too many cooks was spoiling the quality of the broth. Outraged punters, keen to exact revenge, were actually getting in each others way when two people could have done some real damage - and saved the pain of many other people who felt Crane's wrath over the years before his untimely but welcome demise.
Various lefty harridans were also squealing 'Stop it! Youre as bad as they are'. I recall PC was offended by this and replied 'no we're not - we're fackin worse' - in between encouraging others to keep up the pace, by shouting 'Kill the cunt'. A fight nearby resulted in a bit of a surge, which knocked a lot of people off balance. Crane took full advantage of this, jumping to his feet and charging off through the crowd. I recall two Miners (family blokes in their mid-forties, bare-chested and dressed in just shorts and trainers) just missed capturing him and one missed the back of Crane's head with an almighty swing of a cider bottle by millimetres. But Crane escaped.
Later PC, who was just out of Jail and whose face would have been not too well known to the fash in the Agricultural, volunteered to go and check out the Aggy, whilst the rest of us hid in a pub round the corner. He was sipping a glass of lager when in came this shaven-head bone, whom they all called 'Nicky'. He was proudly showing off his black & blue torso to the assembled Boneheads. Crane was told he was lucky to be alive and replied 'I know. all I could hear was some cunt shouting "kill him, kill him" '.
Little did he know that the same 'cunt' was 5 yards away half-chuckling, but also half choking, into his drink.
Anyways PC returned with his report and an ambush on some passing bones was followed by a 'Show of strength' walk-by the Agricultural - which of course descended into a pitch battle in jig-time.
A good story well told there Uncle Albert
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