"Banks create money out of nothing" - Guardian

[phildwyer]

So, around $20 trillion worth (out of say $30 trillion) of hydrocarbons in the ground and on oil company books that can't be pumped and burned without trashing the global climate.

Not exactly fictitious capital, because maybe we will actually burn that stuff and trash the climate, but equally, maybe we'll somehow avoid doing that.

Sort of like Schrodinger's Cat

Not at all clear whether that's fictitious capital ('paper claims on wealth in excess of ... ' ... etc) or not. Question is still unresolved.

All capital is fictitious, in the sense that it doesn't, 'y'know, actually exist or anything. I'd call that a pretty good sense in which to be fictitious wouldn't you?

So what is capital then? It is a sign, or a system of signs. What we are calling the difference between 'fictitious' and 'non-fictitious' capital (as though there could ever be 'non-fictitious capital) is in reality the distinction between referential and non-referential signs.

 

[love detective]

Now that you have dropped punctuation, conventional spelling, coherent sentence structure, and the basic ability to recall simple event sequences, you've become more or less totally incomprehensible. I think we have to call it a day.

create as many smokescreens as you want Falcon - the chronology of the posts are there for anyone to see (anyone not as blind as you that is)

 

[camouflage]

All capital is fictitious, in the sense that it doesn't, 'y'know, actually exist or anything. I'd call that a pretty good sense in which to be fictitious wouldn't you?

So what is capital then? It is a sign, or a system of signs. What we are calling the difference between 'fictitious' and 'non-fictitious' capital (as though there could ever be 'non-fictitious capital) is in reality the distinction between referential and non-referential signs.

I don't think a hundred thousand acres of prime arable land could be described as fictitious capital, or fifty two tonnes of steel, or a hundred and fifty thousand barrels of petroleum, or thirty two IBM very large number crunchers. Maybe in a philosophical sense; what is existence, what does it all matter anyway when we are all doomed to die eventually, what is the meaning of life... that sort of thing.

To me there's a fairly easy distinction between finance-capital and other notional numbers used to measure things... and the actual useful stuff measured.

 

[love detective]

those are use values that you refer to though, they clearly exist and have a material basis

although to say that capital doesn't actually exist, just because it doesn't have a material basis that you can kick, is a mere banality that has no analytical or philosophical value

the education & accumulated learning in a professor for example clearly does not have a material basis that it depends upon for its existence (other than the brain, but that is obviously the same for capital as well), but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Look what can be done with it and look what you can't do without it. Look how much time is spent by them detailing in their CV's as to how much it exists.

it's an odd approach to take for an idealist to argue that something doesn't exist because it has no material basis, but there you go

capital may be immaterial but it's objective

 

[camouflage]

those are use values that you refer to though, they clearly exist and have a material basis

although to say that capital doesn't actually exist, just because it doesn't have a material basis that you can kick, is a mere banality that has no analytical or philosophical value

the education & accumulated learning in a professor for example clearly does not have a material basis that it depends upon for its existence (other than the brain, but that is obviously the same for capital as well), but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Look what can be done with it and look what you can't do without it. Look how much time is spent by them detailing in their CV's as to how much it exists.

it's an odd approach to take for an idealist to argue that something doesn't exist because it has no material basis, but there you go

capital may be immaterial but it's objective

I didn't get far into Marx, but it seems to me that use-value is capital. Even finance-capital has a valuable use in conducting exchanges, though it's easy to confuse it's value in transactions with the value of the transaction itself iyswim.

 

[love detective]

capital wouldn't exist without use values but that doesn't make use values capital

capital isn't a thing, it's a process, a social relation

use values will still be around once the social relation that is capital is obliterated (either by forces internal or external to it) and replaced by some other mode of organising society (whether that is more or less progressive than the current one)

 

[camouflage]

capital wouldn't exist without use values but that doesn't make use values capital

capital isn't a thing, it's a process, a social relation.

Actually 'capital' is a word, and as I understand it- a word applied to a stock of things that are useful.

However I take your point. If stone is useful only for building castles, then what use are castles in a world without feudalism... can stone be called capital in a world like that? Probably not until someone figures out other useful things that can be done with stone.

 

[butchersapron]

This is the danger of podcasts - read books instead!

 

[camouflage]

This is the danger of podcasts - read books instead!

wtf

Well if this was aimed at me Mr Apron, then I can assure you that I do read books, I also listen to podcasts, enjoy films and documentaries and music, long walks and romantic weekends with my significant other and cooked meals both in restaurants and at home. Whatever all this has to do with the price of rice (or indeed this conversation) in your mind I'll just have to accept as a mystery that may never be solved.

 

[phildwyer]

I didn't get far into Marx, but it seems to me that use-value is capital.

No no no you are completely wrong.

This is the kind of mistake we've come to associate with Love Detective, to be frank...

 

[camouflage]

No no no you are completely wrong.

This is the kind of mistake we've come to associate with Love Detective, to be frank...

And what is it that you think capital is?

 

[phildwyer]

And what is it that you think capital is?

A symbol of human life.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

A symbol of human life.

What does that sentence actually mean?

 

[8ball]

What does that sentence actually mean?

Well, there's the obvious Marxist interpretation of what that might mean...

edit: saw the reference to Marx above and thought I'd best clarify - I took Phil's comment to mean that he is talking about the alienated value of human labour.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Well, there's the obvious Marxist interpretation of what that might mean...

edit: saw the reference to Marx above and thought I'd best clarify - I took Phil's comment to mean that he is talking about the alienated value of human labour.

What would that be?

 

[8ball]

What would that be?

sorry - I meant capital as a signifier of the alienated value of human labour

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

sorry - I meant capital as a signifire of the alienated value of human labour

I think phil means something more than that. At least that's what I gather from things he's said in the past. Abstract labour maybe, a symbol of life though? It seems a rather esoteric statement.

 

[8ball]

I think phil means something more than that. At least that's what I gather from things he's said in the past. Abstract labour maybe, a symbol of life though? It seems a rather esoteric statement.

Phil?
Esoteric?

Shurely shome mishtake...

 

[cesare]

The end of the world is nigh.

 

[Greebo]

<snip>Abstract labour maybe, a symbol of life though? It seems a rather esoteric statement.

More or less the one resource all of us have (to some extent) and which is exchanged for goods and services every day.

 

[Greebo]

Phil?
Esoteric?

Shurely shome mishtake...

Stop grooming his ego.

 

[butchersapron]

He simply means human activity, our time.

 

[Greebo]

He simply means human activity, our time.

Not just time, but also energy (or at least the individual's energy, available within the time which each person has).

 

[butchersapron]

Don't say that word please, we'll have falcon back before long

 

[Greebo]

Don't say that word please, we'll have falcon back before long

Which? The initial will do if you prefer to avoid invoking the unspeakable.

 

[8ball]

Not the 'magic e' word!!

 

[butchersapron]

Yes, hereafter i will refer to it as the e-word.

 

[8ball]

Yes, hereafter i will refer to it as the e-word.

 

[Greebo]

Not the 'magic e' word!!

Don't say the 'm' word either, unless you want to risk a derail.

 

[butchersapron]

Or the J word.