How close are we to war breaking out in Europe?
- Thread starter Aladdin
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Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
Yes you're right there was a Europe wide alliance proposed that NATO rejected and that was a mistake. Obviously NATO doesn't have a stated goal of containing Putin but it's surely one of their goals.
Why anyone ever thought Putin was going to be a lovely little liberal to the west is beyond me, even when I was younger and Bush was going on about 'seeing his soul' I was amazed because it's very obvious there is no soul behind those dead and hollowed out eyes of his.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
proxy war ftw
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
That is the point of NATO, tbf. If invasion of a NATO member didn't result in a military response, what would be the point of NATO?
If Ukraine were in NATO, there would already be a load of NATO forces there, no?
bimble
floofy
yeah in theory. i just don't know, if russia invaded estonia woud we have a massive war?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
you'll have to wait and see
Nikkormat
Well-Known Member
There is particular anger at Germany for not taking a harder line on gas supplies. Nobody is calling for war.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The main idea of membership is that Russia won't (wouldn't dare) invade. If they ever were to, things would be much uglier than they are in Ukraine.
Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania have their own issues, mind you - stateless ethnic Russians who were born there, many of whose parents were born there, effectively stranded and not treated well. Nationalism is often an ugly thing.
US should compromise on NATO to save Ukraine
The author is director of the Center for Sustainable Development at Columbia University If US President Joe Biden and his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin manage to hold a summit on Ukraine, what should Biden’s approach be? Biden has repeatedly said the US is open to diplomacy with Russia, but...
oltnews.com
Interesting. Might be a way through this mess.
RD2003
Got a really fucking shitty attitude
It's amusing to see how many people think this is mainly about what goes in in Putin's head, or (subjective) notions of right and wrong.
AnnaKarpik
Queen of all she surveys
Putin says he is sending in the military at the request of the separatist rebels and to protect ethnic Russians from harm; as far as I can recall, this is pretty much the reason NATO put forward to intervene in Kosovo, a base for terrorists in Afghanistan, an oppressive state was one of the excuses for Iraq. NATO/US/UK seemed to want a 'rules-based order' where international law takes second place and they set the rules; now we all have to live with sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
What you refer to as 'excuses for his behaviour' are, for my part at least, nothing of the sort, they are the reasons for his behaviour which is not irrational.
Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
This is useful for anyone wanting to understand how Putin can be hobbled. The sanctions announced today are a big fat nothing according to Browder.
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
I’m just pretending there’s no such thing as Ukraine and Russia, so I don’t have to read about it.
Wake me up if the UK gets invaded.
Wake me up if the UK gets invaded.
He mentions some of Putins stooges are in the UK parliament currently and some are ex ministers and are harboring his money for him. Along with many oligarchs in London.
Is Boris ready to sanction them by freezing their assets?
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
With apologies for genuine naivety, and to add to this in the right place..
I think I just didn't want to believe Vladimir Putin was really living some 19th Century nationalist fantasy; I thought it was much more a pose for his home crowd. I thought, he wasn't that stupid. Who the fuck is that stupid? To want an empire again, after all we supposedly learned during the 20th century. All the war, liberation struggles, revolutions, 'balkanisation', empires collapsing left and right, new flags, new countries...
Well Putin apparently is. I can't see it as anything other than stupidity, absurdity, how even can it end? Am I just decadent and soft? Has he had some diagnosis that's sent him into a final-stage psychotic breakdown? How the hell can someone like him exist, in 2022? It's nuts, it's fucking with my head in so many ways before I even get to the potential for real war in Europe. I can't even.
I think I just didn't want to believe Vladimir Putin was really living some 19th Century nationalist fantasy; I thought it was much more a pose for his home crowd. I thought, he wasn't that stupid. Who the fuck is that stupid? To want an empire again, after all we supposedly learned during the 20th century. All the war, liberation struggles, revolutions, 'balkanisation', empires collapsing left and right, new flags, new countries...
Well Putin apparently is. I can't see it as anything other than stupidity, absurdity, how even can it end? Am I just decadent and soft? Has he had some diagnosis that's sent him into a final-stage psychotic breakdown? How the hell can someone like him exist, in 2022? It's nuts, it's fucking with my head in so many ways before I even get to the potential for real war in Europe. I can't even.
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dilute micro
esse quam videri
Over the past decade or more he's not only been bringing the military up to modern tech (which is understandable) but he's also been making it larger. For years now people have speculated that he's got big plans.
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
They don’t really have the money for a long war though, do they?
dilute micro
esse quam videri
Good point. Idk
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
who does, these days? not britain, and perhaps not even the united states - who are anyway on a collision course with china. certainly ukraine aren't awash with money and even if they get given a fuck ton of weapons they'll still have to pay soldiers and buy fuel and so on
Hate to say it but...would a nuclear war cost him less in ₽ ?
Yep I was thinking similar for quite a while.
He could be acting completely nuts in order to freak out the world.
Or he could actually be nuts.
The footage of him meeting his ministers the other day showed him as quite jittery..and his facial twitches were odd.
Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
He can cause mayhem in other ways can't he? There's long been talk of seeds of division being sown online. He knows where weaknesses are in "The West."
Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
I don't think he's mentally unwell. Rather, he doesn't seem to have the empathy most people have, like people with a huge amount of power tend not to.
rubbershoes
not the only raver in the village
Are we his audience though? How much of this is to boost Russian nationalism and increase his support at home?
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
If urban is his intended audience he's got his work cut out.
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
He's been doing that for a while now. It's been quite successful as a cheap and plausibly deniable means of poisoning the well of US politics, which is why I'm a little puzzled that Putin is playing the Ukraine thing up now. By comparison getting all sabre-rattley is expensive and impossible to hide. Putin has always struck me as the type to play the long game, but maybe he feels like he is running out of time for some reason or another?
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
I've long thought so, but I'm late to the game in terms of starting to suspect that no, he means it materially and is set on physically 'reclaiming what is rightfully ours'.
Recolonisation is on, nobody is going to stand up to it, and that's possibly the most scary thing.
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Empires collapsing. But not the American empire, which had a very good century. And why shouldn't he have a crack at a revived russian empire? Xi jinping is having a go at another Chinese empire after all. Anyway the thing we ought to have learned from the 20th century is that it's not a grand parade towards a wonderful tomorrow or day after tomorrow and that things can get bad fast.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
What should the World Bank do? How should the IMF help countries? When did you last stop hitting your partner?
The question supposes that one ultimately wants an organisation like NATO to exist. I'm a socialist I don't support NATO.
But regardless of one's views on NATO it is not apologism to look at how NATO has expanded, what are the structural reasons that have driven that expansion, what are its aims, how does the expansion of NATO affect, and appear, to other powers.
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