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How close are we to war breaking out in Europe?

LynnDoyleCooper said:
Chomsky been blaming NATO (mostly the US) for surrounding Russia with NATO's offensive weapons, and saying no Russian leader could tolerate that.
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He's not entirely wrong though, is he. Why is NATO in eastern europe anyway, why try to include all the eastern countries except Russia? I don't think anyone could be blamed for thinking as far as NATO is concerned the cold war never ended. As for the US, what were they hoping to achieve by pouring money into the Ukrainian opposition in 2014? They got the overthrow of a legitimate government, but is that all they wanted?

As far as Donetsk and Luhansk go, we've been told for the past nine years that the Russians are supporting the separatists so in effect nothing has changed.
 
Aladdin said:
truthout.org

Chomsky: US Approach to Ukraine Has “Left the Domain of Rational Discourse”

Noam Chomsky outlines the deadly dangers of U.S. intransigence over Ukrainian membership in NATO.
truthout.org truthout.org

Might help..
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not really. He says 'It is sometimes claimed that NATO membership increases security for Poland and others. A much stronger case can be made that NATO membership threatens their security by heightening tensions. '
I dunno if i'd agree with that if i was say estonia.
 
bimble said:
not really. He says 'It is sometimes claimed that NATO membership increases security for Poland and others. A much stronger case can be made that NATO membership threatens their security by heightening tensions. '
I dunno if i'd agree with that if i was say estonia.
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Did you read the full interview ?
 
The last major NATO expansions were from 1999-2004 and those countries seeked to join due to Russia's operations in Chechnya and senior politicians talking about the restoration of Soviet borders.
 
TopCat said:
Will you summarise what is said and what you think about it?
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He agrees with you, essentially, obviously while coming from a different political direction.

He is 100% correct in his explanation as to why it's come to this.
 
My old dad phoned me last night properly freaking out, i think almost having flashbacks to 50 years ago when he got to stay here as a refugee when Russian tanks rolled into czechoslovakia where he's from. He was going on about how nato shouldn't have expanded too. But from putin's speech last night i really didn't get the impression that that is actually the main thing, the man was ranting about blood and myths and how the russian empire should never have fallen.
 
bimble said:
My old dad phoned me last night properly freaking out, i think almost having flashbacks to 50 years ago when he got to stay here as a refugee when Russian tanks rolled into czechoslovakia where he's from. He was going on about how nato shouldn't have expanded too. But from putin's speech last night i really didn't get the impression that that is actually the main thing, the man was ranting about blood and myths and how the russian empire should never have fallen.
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I'm sat writing this from Czech Republic, where just down the road there was until last year a statue of Marshal Koněv, where the current president is widely believed to be essentially a Russian stooge, and where eight years ago Russian agents blew up an arms warehouse, killing two Czechs. Anyone thinking this is about Russia feeling threatened by NATO is talking shit. The majority of Czechs know that without NATO, they would live in fear of another Russian occupation. It's not about Russia feeling threatened, it's about Russia trying to regain its sphere of influence at the expense of other countries. The fact that some European powers seem content to throw Ukraine under the bus just reminds people here of 1938.
 
bimble said:
My old dad phoned me last night properly freaking out, i think almost having flashbacks to 50 years ago when he got to stay here as a refugee when Russian tanks rolled into czechoslovakia where he's from. He was going on about how nato shouldn't have expanded too. But from putin's speech last night i really didn't get the impression that that is actually the main thing, the man was ranting about blood and myths and how the russian empire should never have fallen.
Click to expand...

Sorry your dad is reliving what must have been traumatic. 🥺

Putin is and has consistently opposed NATO expansion in Eastern Europe. Germany and France opposed Ukraine membership of NATO..because they knew it was inflammatory.

Putin has got some fixation about the history of "The Rus" and has a romanticised notion of slavic nations united if not georaphically then in some way..
But essentially he does not want NATO on his doorstep and US troops moving in next door.

Eta Nikkormat ..I ust read you are in Czech Republic now. I spent some time there in 2000 just as things were getting better and they were readying to fully join the EU.
Its a lovely country.
 
Aladdin said:
Sorry your dad is reliving what must have been traumatic. 🥺

Putin is and has consistently opposed NATO expansion in Eastern Europe. Germany and France opposed Ukraine membership of NATO..because they knew it was inflammatory.

Putin has got some fixation about the history of "The Rus" and has a romanticised notion of slavic nations united if not georaphically then in some way..
But essentially he does not want NATO on his doorstep and US troops moving in next door.

Eta Nikkormat ..I ust read you are in Czech Republic now. I spent some time there in 2000 just as things were getting better and they were readying to fully join the EU.
Its a lovely country.
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He opposes it because it thwarts his ambitions. I agree that NATO shouldn't have moved as far east as it has but there's a reason countries like Poland, Estonia and Latvia wanted to join it. NATO's goal is to contain Putin and he doesn't want to be contained.

As for Chomsky's take and the likes of Stop The War it's all a bit 2001 isn't it? The US are not the only imperialist cunts they're just the most powerful, a power that has been weakened by Russian shenanigans that don't involve the use of military force, not entirely anyway. Now that power has been weakened sufficiently and has an unpopular dreary windbag as its leader and now Putin needs a nationalist win for his home base the time is right for him to do this.
 
This place makes me laugh sometimes, we were all just about united in condemnation of the US & UK in breaking international law, with the illegal invasion of Iraq back in 2003.

Yet now it's Putin breaking international law, some people are intent on making excuses for his behaviour, and trying to justify his actions, it beggars belief.
 
cupid_stunt said:
This place makes me laugh sometimes, we were all just about united in condemnation of the US & UK in breaking international law, with the illegal invasion of Iraq back in 2003.

Yet now it's Putin breaking international law, some people are intent on making excuses for his behaviour, and trying to justify his actions, it beggars belief.
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Almost like a new generation of tankies.
 
Doctor Carrot said:
He opposes it because it thwarts his ambitions. I agree that NATO shouldn't have moved as far east as it has but there's a reason countries like Poland, Estonia and Latvia wanted to join it. NATO's goal is to contain Putin and he doesn't want to be contained.

As for Chomsky's take and the likes of Stop The War it's all a bit 2001 isn't it? The US are not the only imperialist cunts they're just the most powerful, a power that has been weakened by Russian shenanigans that don't involve the use of military force, not entirely anyway. Now that power has been weakened sufficiently and has an unpopular dreary windbag as its leader and now Putin needs a nationalist win for his home base the time is right for him to do this.
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There was a time when Russia wanted to join NATO.
Its role is not to "contain Putin".
Its to maintain political alliances between the US and its members and promote a united Europe.

Gorbachev had a vision of a united Europe . A common European home. Putin fucked that up and detests Gorbachev and what he stood for.
cupid_stunt said:
This place makes me laugh sometimes, we were all just about united in condemnation of the US & UK in breaking international law, with the illegal invasion of Iraq back in 2003.

Yet now it's Putin breaking international law, some people are intent on making excuses for his behaviour, and trying to justify his actions, it beggars belief.
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And what did the world do in response to the US ?


Who is justifying Putin's actions here?

The question that needs answering is why is Biden not imposing sanctions on Russia right now.
 
Nikkormat said:
The fact that some European powers seem content to throw Ukraine under the bus just reminds people here of 1938..
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What are people there wanting other countries to do- Is there talk of more than sanctions ?

Even if Ukraine was in nato do people think that an actual war would happen to defend it ?
 
cupid_stunt said:
This place makes me laugh sometimes, we were all just about united in condemnation of the US & UK in breaking international law, with the illegal invasion of Iraq back in 2003.

Yet now it's Putin breaking international law, some people are intent on making excuses for his behaviour, and trying to justify his actions, it beggars belief.
Click to expand...
Yes, if only we could get it right on here it would be half the battle.
 
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