Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth

[DaphneM]

I couldn't work out what your point was - that's why I asked you a question. Perhaps you could elaborate now?

sorry dont quite under stand how to do multiple quotes

You said - "Oh, I'm all for massively increasing the welfare standards of animals and removing the barbaric industrial farms and industrial processes. And if that results in sky high meat prices, then people will be encouraged to seek out equally tasty, non-meat alternatives. Sounds like a total win to me!"

I said something along the lines of being able to eat meat only if you are rich and poor people being forced to become vegetarians doesn't sound like a total win to me.

You said - "So you want the devastating environmental damage and the horrendous cruelty to go on just so you can have a cheap chicken burger? Nice."

The answer to the peculiar question "So you want the devastating environmental damage and the horrendous cruelty to go on just so you can have a cheap chicken burger?" would be No.

Does that help you?

 

[editor]

I've no real problem returning to a life with less red meat. Just so long as soneone doesn't force me to never ever have it again.

Good job then that absolutely no one is forcing you to change your diet then.

 

[editor]

sorry dont quite under stand how to do multiple quotes

You said - "Oh, I'm all for massively increasing the welfare standards of animals and removing the barbaric industrial farms and industrial processes. And if that results in sky high meat prices, then people will be encouraged to seek out equally tasty, non-meat alternatives. Sounds like a total win to me!"

I said something along the lines of being able to eat meat only if you are rich and poor people being forced to become vegetarians doesn't sound like a total win to me.

You said - "So you want the devastating environmental damage and the horrendous cruelty to go on just so you can have a cheap chicken burger? Nice."

The answer to the peculiar question "So you want the devastating environmental damage and the horrendous cruelty to go on just so you can have a cheap chicken burger?" would be No.

Does that help you?

So what is your solution?

 

[Spymaster]

sorry dont quite under stand how to do multiple quotes

You said - "Oh, I'm all for massively increasing the welfare standards of animals and removing the barbaric industrial farms and industrial processes. And if that results in sky high meat prices, then people will be encouraged to seek out equally tasty, non-meat alternatives. Sounds like a total win to me!"

I said something along the lines of being able to eat meat only if you are rich and poor people being forced to become vegetarians doesn't sound like a total win to me.

You said - "So you want the devastating environmental damage and the horrendous cruelty to go on just so you can have a cheap chicken burger? Nice."

The answer to the peculiar question "So you want the devastating environmental damage and the horrendous cruelty to go on just so you can have a cheap chicken burger?" would be No.

Does that help you?

Now this is going to get weird.

 

[Aladdin]

Now this is going to get weird.

 

[DaphneM]

So what is your solution?

by your logic we should raise the price of petrol so only the rich can afford to use their cars.

Does that sound like a total win to you?

 

[Poot]

by your logic we should raise the price of petrol so only the rich can afford to use their cars.

Does that sound like a total win to you?

Does petrol suffer indescribable cruelty?

 

[WouldBe]

(p. 6/12) so clearly immunocastration hasn't yet allowed boars to live to a ripe auld age or even in so many cases puberty before being killed. maybe spend a couple of minutes researching before making big claims you don't support.

Not much does live to a ripe old age in farming. The piglets are raised to 20-24 weeks(ish) before being slaughtered for meat hardly the same as being killed within a few days of birth like male dairy calves which is how your post read.

 

[Spymaster]

Does petrol suffer indescribable cruelty?

Is cruelty the primary measure by which this should be judged though?

Why should a skint mum who wants to feed her kids chicken, be more concerned for the chickens than her kids? Tens of millions of people don't really care about the plight of the animals. They just want cheap meat and they don't share your views.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Does petrol suffer indescribable cruelty?

It ties in with the topic of the thread, and fossil fuels do cause loads of health and environmental damage. Should we also increase the cost of jet fuel so only the rich can fly? I'm sure they'd love it but it's hardly fair on everyone else.

 

[Poot]

Is cruelty the primary measure by which this should be judged though?

Why should a skint mum who wants to feed her kids chicken, be more concerned for the chickens than her kids? Tens of millions of people don't really care about the plight of the animals. They just want cheap meat and they don't share your views.

Chickens should not be treated cruelly, even if that makes them more expensive. No one should have to choose cheap meat, benefits and wages should be higher. There's no excuse for cheap, badly-treated animals. Not least because they cause pandemics.

 

[Poot]

It ties in with the topic of the thread, and fossil fuels do cause loads of health and environmental damage. Should we also increase the cost of jet fuel so only the rich can fly? I'm sure they'd love it but it's hardly fair on everyone else.

I'm not talking about artificially inflating the price or taxing, I'm talking about a fair price for an animal that wasn't treated badly.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I'm not talking about artificially inflating the price or taxing, I'm talking about a fair price for an animal that wasn't treated badly.

What's a fair price for a chicken?

 

[editor]

by your logic we should raise the price of petrol so only the rich can afford to use their cars.

Does that sound like a total win to you?

It's generally considered good manners to answer a question when politely asked, rather than trying to change the topic and indulge in world class whataboutery.

 

[Spymaster]

Chickens should not be treated cruelly, even if that makes them more expensive. No one should have to choose cheap meat, benefits and wages should be higher. There's no excuse for cheap, badly-treated animals. Not least because they cause pandemics.

I agree with you, but that's not where we are. While there is a demand for cheap meat, cheap meat will be produced and the demand won't be reduced by veganist moralising or silly threads like this.

 

[Poot]

What's a fair price for a chicken?

The cost of their food, accommodation, luxury bubble bath and espresso martinis. How the fuck should I know, I'm a vegetarian.

 

[Pickman's model]

Not much does live to a ripe old age in farming. The piglets are raised to 20-24 weeks(ish) before being slaughtered for meat hardly the same as being killed within a few days of birth like male dairy calves which is how your post read.

my objection to littlebabyjesus' 'obvious' comment could have been structured thus: it might be 60% of pigs (altho' it isn't, it's in the range of 10% of pigs). after all, males form a small portion of the chicken population of the country not to mention a small proportion of the cattle population. that is the gist of my contention in my last reply to him, and altho littlebabyjesus should send you thanks for going out to bat for him it's a curious subject for you to choose to spend so much of the day thinking about.

but even if littlebabyjesus won't express his gratitude, i will as you have helped liven up an otherwise dull day

 

[editor]

What's a fair price for a chicken?

Are you happy with this kind of scene? Or do you think that maybe factory chicken farming should have higher standards of welfare, whatever the cost?

 

[Poot]

I agree with you, but that's not where we are. While there is a demand for cheap meat, cheap eat will be produced and the demand won't be reduced by veganist moralising.

I don't think it's veganist moralising to want chickens to be raised without cruelty, I think that should be a minimum requirement. People don't complain that they can't afford fillet steak, why should chicken be a basic human right?

 

[Saul Goodman]

Are you happy with this kind of scene? Or do you think that maybe factory chicken farming should have higher standards of welfare, whatever the cost?

View attachment 280763

What's a fair price for a chicken?

 

[Spymaster]

I don't think it's veganist moralising to want chickens to be raised without cruelty, I think that should be a minimum requirement. People don't complain that they can't afford fillet steak, why should chicken be a basic human right?

Again, I agree with you regarding welfare standards but f all chickens were reared in the utmost comfort and given spa treatments every day, veganists would then be saying that it's not a basic right to eat chicken so they shouldn't be killed at all. Those of us who eat meat have no problem with exploiting animals to some extent but even among carnists there'll be varying degrees of what we feel is acceptable. Why should other people accept your (or my) limits?

 

[editor]

What's a fair price for a chicken?

A price that affords the animal a decent standard of living and welfare. So you'd have to get rid of those barbaric factory farms for starters. No idea what the price would work out to, but don't really care. And if fewer chickens are being eaten, that's a win all round because there's plenty of cruelty free alternatives.

Now answer my questions please.

 

[Poot]

Again, I agree with you regarding welfare standards but f all chickens were reared in the utmost comfort and given spa treatments every day, veganists would then be saying that it's not a basic right to eat chicken so they shouldn't be killed at all. Those of us who eat meat have no problem with exploiting animals to some extent but even among carnists there'll be varying degrees of what we feel is acceptable. Why should other people accept your (or my) limits?

That's not my experience. Most of the meat eaters I know would rather the animal had not suffered cruelty. There may be a certain amount of blind-eye-turning, but that's why we need laws about this sort of thing. Not least, terrible diseases come from badly treated animals.

 

[Spymaster]

That's not my experience. Most of the meat eaters I know would rather the animal had not suffered cruelty. There may be a certain amount of blind-eye-turning, but that's why we need laws about this sort of thing. Not least, terrible diseases come from badly treated animals.

But the blind eye turning is the rule, not the exception, and we do have laws about this sort of thing. Most factory farming stays on the right side of the law. Those laws just don't prevent animal suffering to the extent that you want them to.

 

[Saul Goodman]

A price that affords the animal a decent standard of living and welfare. So you'd have to get rid of those barbaric factory farms for starters. No idea what the price would work out to, but don't really care. And if fewer chickens are being eaten, that's a win all round because there's plenty of cruelty free alternatives.

Now answer my questions please.

Already answered it, many times.

 

[editor]

Already answered it, many times.

So you agree that the price of chicken should be raised to afford chickens decent welfare standards, regardless of whether it makes the meat prohibitively expensive for some or not?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I'm not talking about artificially inflating the price or taxing, I'm talking about a fair price for an animal that wasn't treated badly.

The people who do the dirty work of getting oil out of the ground are paid a pittance in squalid conditions. If we doubled the price of petrol perhaps they could be treated less badly?

 

[Saul Goodman]

So you agree that the price of chicken should be raised to afford chickens decent welfare standards, regardless of whether it makes the meat prohibitively expensive for some or not?

No.

 

[Poot]

The people who do the dirty work of getting oil out of the ground are paid a pittance in squalid conditions. If we doubled the price of petrol perhaps they could be treated less badly?

Well quite.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

A price that affords the animal a decent standard of living and welfare. So you'd have to get rid of those barbaric factory farms for starters. No idea what the price would work out to, but don't really care. And if fewer chickens are being eaten, that's a win all round because there's plenty of cruelty free alternatives.

Now answer my questions please.

It's an interesting point though, isn't it? It's morally repugnant that only rich people would be able to afford meat.