David Clapson
Well-Known Member
It's not a proposal! Why are you trying to make it into one? And why can't you see that there's a middle ground between everybody having two children and everybody having none? Christ on a bike. Are you high?
Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth
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littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
No, it doesn't. That's where you've been bamboozled by magical thinking. Once you retire, you need workers doing things for your retirement to work.
Otherwise your 'pot' isn't worth shit.
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
They may as well go the whole hog and put "failing to commit suicide" below "having one less child", it is after all a step more inline with the stated rationale of the figure, which is clearly based on individual actions and an individual's footprint, not those of a family. If they're going to start putting other family member's CO2 footprints on there, perhaps stuff like "transferring your grandma from her house to a nursing home" should make an appearance too. 
David Clapson
Well-Known Member
Once again you've gone to an absurd extreme. If some people have zero children there will still be workers doing things because other people will have more than zero children.
I'm going to ignore you now. Find someone else for your pointless bunfight.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It's a shit idea for a comparison, full of holes. Meaningless.
In much of the rich world, including most of Europe, we're already below the 2.1 children per woman replacement rate. So at whom exactly is this idea aimed, that we should be having fewer children? The poor of the Global South, presumably. And there we are, back at the position yet again of blaming the poor for a problem almost entirely created by the rich.
It's a hateful proposition.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Oh dear, someone has disagreed with you.
Go back to my original post and you'll find me saying exactly what you do above - that if you choose to have zero children, you are relying on other people's children to pay for your pension. There is nothing selfless about that choice. You're not saving the planet. It's a bullshit idea.
I think it’s a bit silly to compare personal actions in the here and now with all future activity undertaken by your hypothetical descendants.
It’s equally silly to suggest that we need to maintain the population in order to support the elderly, however. That plays into the capitalists’ hands of mistaking employment for socially useful production. It’s a point that only makes sense if you accept the existing capitalist system as a given.
It’s equally silly to suggest that we need to maintain the population in order to support the elderly, however. That plays into the capitalists’ hands of mistaking employment for socially useful production. It’s a point that only makes sense if you accept the existing capitalist system as a given.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Don't really get your point. We all depend on the labour of others whether we're working or not.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
You're assuming he has a point worth making, which is at best debatable
Johnny Vodka
The Abominable Scotsman
I have friends/family who have lots of kids. By that I mean 4 or 5 kids - and they consume, consume, consume. They expect to eat endless amounts of meat, travel as much as they can and buy as much tat as possible. It's fair to say they think less about reining in consumption than I, a single person with no kids, do. So not sure where some get the idea from that it's all about people in the developing world having fewer kids.
Bought a load of veggie and vegan grub from the supermarket yesterday. Had burgers from the Vegetarian Butcher with my dinner (which are vegan). But I noticed they are made by Unilever.
Unilever is a company that profits/has profitted from deforestation/palm oil extraction, child labour and being one of the main global plastic polluters. They tried to cover up a salmonella outbreak of theirs in Israel. They have also put pressure on sections of the media to promote skin whiteners in Sri Lanka.
Then I thought about how all the other vegan companies are probably exploitative. It really hit home that theres no ethical consumption with capitalism, which I have thought before. It probably is best for me to eat this stuff instead of animal products, but it makes you think, and I won't be buying stuff from the Vegetarian Butchers again.
Unilever is a company that profits/has profitted from deforestation/palm oil extraction, child labour and being one of the main global plastic polluters. They tried to cover up a salmonella outbreak of theirs in Israel. They have also put pressure on sections of the media to promote skin whiteners in Sri Lanka.
Then I thought about how all the other vegan companies are probably exploitative. It really hit home that theres no ethical consumption with capitalism, which I have thought before. It probably is best for me to eat this stuff instead of animal products, but it makes you think, and I won't be buying stuff from the Vegetarian Butchers again.
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platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
Children put on a vegan diet by their parents have stunted growth and weak bones:
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Growth, body composition, and cardiovascular and nutritional risk of 5- to 10-y-old children consuming vegetarian, vegan, or omnivore diets - PubMed
Vegan diets were associated with a healthier cardiovascular risk profile but also with increased risk of nutritional deficiencies and lower BMC and height. Vegetarians showed less pronounced nutritional deficiencies but, unexpectedly, a less favorable cardiometabolic risk profile. Further...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
kenny g
Sheeple Awake!
My bulk buy chick peas and mung beans from the local Tesco to my work place have a pretty tiny carbon footprint until shortly after digestion when the methane tends to let rip. But hey ho, one of the unintended side effects of a flexitarion lifestyle.
maomao
普費斯
I was going to suggest that maybe the Polish have less experience of vegan diets than we do over here but apparently 8.1% of the Polish population is vegan or vegetarian compared to 6% over here. Don't know why but that surprises me.Children put on a vegan diet by their parents have stunted growth and weak bones:
Growth, body composition, and cardiovascular and nutritional risk of 5- to 10-y-old children consuming vegetarian, vegan, or omnivore diets - PubMed
Vegan diets were associated with a healthier cardiovascular risk profile but also with increased risk of nutritional deficiencies and lower BMC and height. Vegetarians showed less pronounced nutritional deficiencies but, unexpectedly, a less favorable cardiometabolic risk profile. Further...
kenny g
Sheeple Awake!
Study based on Polish vegans rather than somewhere like India where I suspect vegans have a more balanced diet. Personally I do eat red meat as well as stacks of pulses due to micro nutrient issues and too many mung beans and greens launch rheamatism/arthritis agony in the joints probably as a result of various sports injuries and earlier life style choices/ genetics. To be frankChildren put on a vegan diet by their parents have stunted growth and weak bones:
Growth, body composition, and cardiovascular and nutritional risk of 5- to 10-y-old children consuming vegetarian, vegan, or omnivore diets - PubMed
Vegan diets were associated with a healthier cardiovascular risk profile but also with increased risk of nutritional deficiencies and lower BMC and height. Vegetarians showed less pronounced nutritional deficiencies but, unexpectedly, a less favorable cardiometabolic risk profile. Further...
the Flexi approach makes more sense as it is more flexible and allows one to respond to ones bodies needs. And I like lamb.
kenny g
Sheeple Awake!
Maybe because the meat options are pork, pork or more pork with pork fat.
ska invita
back on the other side
Recent phenomenon, younger generation embracing it
Artaxerxes
Look out, he's got a gnu!
Jesus what a paradise
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
So are Polish people too thick to vegan properly, or is it actually a bad idea for a parent to restrict a child's diet so drastically regardless of how much they think they know about nutrition?
maomao
普費斯
It's a difficult one and I didn't look at the data properly. Were there well-nourished children in the vegan cohort or was it universal? The main predictors of malnourishment in kids are still economic either way.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The vast majority of Indian non-meat-eaters are not vegan as they consume dairy - lacto-vegetarians.Study based on Polish vegans rather than somewhere like India where I suspect vegans have a more balanced diet. Personally I do eat red meat as well as stacks of pulses due to micro nutrient issues and too many mung beans and greens launch rheamatism/arthritis agony in the joints probably as a result of various sports injuries and earlier life style choices/ genetics. To be frank
If they are living in areas without access to vitamin supplements or food fortified with vitamin B12 that has been cultured using bacteria in a lab, Indian vegans are extremely likely to be anaemic.
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editor
hiraethified
Regardless of what happens in Poland, there's plenty of people eating meat who have appalling diets too. so anyone suggesting that a properly balanced vegan diet is somehow inadequate is talking utter bollocks. Some of the world's fittest athletes do very well on their vegan diets.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The Polish study specifically concerned growing children. Clearly the reasons behind the results need further examination, as they say, but the study does raise questions as to what a properly balanced vegan diet for a child looks like.
editor
hiraethified
Again, there's no evidence that a properly balanced vegan diet - with whatever supplements are required - is somehow inadequate for children.
Is a vegan diet healthy for kids? | Good Food
Is a vegan diet a healthy, balanced one for children? We asked our expert dietitian to set out what parents and guardians need to know...
www.bbcgoodfood.com
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
You haven't read the link, have you?
kenny g
Sheeple Awake!
Stating that a properly balanced vegan diet is adequate is somewhat tautological. Any properly balanced diet is adequate by definition. The point is that it is probably quite a bit more difficult to properly balance a vegan diet especially for children. Meat and two veg actually contains a significant nutritional mix. My daughter is vegan and appears to be doing it properly but it does require effort. I agree there are successful vegan athletes but athletes nowadays put significant attention to nutrition. Probably far more than most parents feeding their off spring.
editor
hiraethified
See the link above.
Favelado
J'adore South Shore
But the poster provided some evidence to the contrary, and you said there was 'no evidence'.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The link I'm talking about is the one whose evidence I was referring to, the one posted just upthread. The article summarising new research published three days ago.
Well it is not necessarily down to being thick or personal choices. It has been a while since I have been to Poland but there seemed to us that the availability of vegan and vegetarian options varied greatly between European countries. We remember the Czech republic as being particularly bad. In the UK the catering for non-meat diets has improved vastly in recent years. The availability may have a great effect on how healthy such diets are. So it could be something particular to Poland or something universal but it is unlikely to be due to people being thick (though you were perhaps not entirely serious using that word). When we had our daughter 5 and a bit years ago there were no concerns raised about her going straight into a vegetarian diet by midwives, health visitors etc but there was some about her going on a vegan diet (which we never intended).
Have you read the whole paper? Is the less favourable cardiometabolic risk for vegetarians relative only to vegans or generally? I imagine that a wholesale substitution of cheese for meat among vegetarians could be pretty unhealthy.
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