Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth

[Saul Goodman]

There are many, many ways of measuring health but the point of the thread surely is about cutting down on meat and dairy for the planet not throwing yourself into a vegan lifestyle against even your own wishes. My argument would be that if you already don't eat meat or diary you almost don't have to be here. It's about cutting down, not giving up, surely. (Or giving up if you feel that you should/can, obviously).

I've already cut down as much as I ever will. But you are right about the vegans not needing to be on this thread. They're only here to hurl abuse at others. They absolutely don't want others to stop eating meat, or they'd lose their pedestal.

 

[Poot]

I've already cut down as much as I ever will. But you are right about the vegans not needing to be on this thread. They're only here to hurl abuse at others. They absolutely don't want others to stop eating meat, or they'd lose their pedestal.

Well, equally if you've no intention of cutting down any further, why are you here? It's almost as though no one is here because they plan to cut down, which is the point of the thread, isn't it?

 

[Saul Goodman]

Well, equally if you've no intention of cutting down any further, why are you here? It's almost as though no one is here because they plan to cut down, which is the point of the thread, isn't it?

If that was the point of the thread, certain fundamentalists wouldn't be given a soap box.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Well, equally if you've no intention of cutting down any further, why are you here? It's almost as though no one is here because they plan to cut down, which is the point of the thread, isn't it?

I think there are a lot of issues here. It doesn't easily reduce to a tweet-length answer.

1. Regarding health:
Cutting down on the absolute amount of meat (and I include fish in that). Changing the kind of meat you eat - not just red vs white, but perhaps more importantly, fresh vs processed. Changing the way you eat that meat - it's not just about frequency of meat consumption. And of course, dietary health isn't all about meat - what of all the other things we're eating.

2. Regarding animal welfare:
Clearly, issues of free range/battery, but also realism about how embedded and intertwined our animal-product-consuming systems are. As funky monks was keen to point out, the dairy industry and the beef industry are aspects of the same industry. Whether you eat free range or barn-kept chickens, male chicks still get put through the shredder. Regarding transport and slaughter, what levels of knowledge or control can we have over these?

3. Regarding the environment:
The question 'how should we farm?' What can and can't be sustained long-term? What does sustainable farming look like and realistically what would our 'fair share' look like within that system? How do we balance potentially competing interests and make healthy, sustainable diets something everyone can achieve?

Number 1. is ultimately largely within our own agency, allowing for the limiting factors of income, time and energy to devote to food, living in food deserts, etc.

Numbers 2. and 3. are only partially under our control, mostly not, even with our best efforts. What kinds of changes would we like to see and how do we get them? What is the place for individual action vs collective action? What does that collective action look like? And lastly, not unimportantly, what alliances are we prepared to make with others to effect change for the better? Who are the common enemies here?

 

[ddraig]

Yep. It could be an interesting discussion, working out how things can be changed. I've tried to steer things that way, but it can't be done.

Anyhow, I'm out.

 

[ddraig]

I've already cut down as much as I ever will. But you are right about the vegans not needing to be on this thread. They're only here to hurl abuse at others. They absolutely don't want others to stop eating meat, or they'd lose their pedestal.

So people who you disagree with should leave the thread but people who agree with you should stay?

 

[Saul Goodman]

So people who you disagree with should leave the thread but people who agree with you should stay?

No, just you and that other troll, Jeff.

 

[ddraig]

No, just you and the other troll.

awww didums, look at you with your edited links and breathless posting trying to catch people out and getting egg on your face

It is GREAT this thread and veganism lives rent free in you and the gang's heads tho

Unless you can link to trolling of course....

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This is the problem isn't it? Insisting on the existence of 'gangs'. So my last point regarding changing things for the better through collective action remains strictly limited.

 

[ddraig]

This is the problem isn't it? Insisting on the existence of 'gangs'. So my last point regarding changing things for the better through collective action remains strictly limited.

Come off it, you're going to deny there's a little gang on here?

 

[Saul Goodman]

awww didums, look at you with your edited links and breathless posting trying to catch people out and getting egg on your face

It is GREAT this thread and veganism lives rent free in you and the gang's heads tho

Unless you can link to trolling of course....

Fuck me, how old are you? You act like a 13 year old who lives in a box in his grandmother's attic.

 

[ddraig]

Fuck me, how old are you? You act like a 13 year old who lives in a box in his grandmother's attic.

priceless! keep going, troll

 

[Johnny Vodka]

I think there are a lot of issues here. It doesn't easily reduce to a tweet-length answer.

1. Regarding health:
Cutting down on the absolute amount of meat (and I include fish in that).

I think oily fish is considered incredibly beneficial and better to eat it than not to? I posted recently that I was going to eat meat/fish only once a week (down from twice), but now I've decided I'm going to try to just eat oily fish, although maybe 2 or 3 times a week, obviously sticking to the most sustainable varieties (so probably just mackerel, herring and sardines).

 

[Saul Goodman]

I think oily fish is considered incredibly beneficial and better to eat it than not to? I posted recently that I was going to eat meat/fish only once a week (down from twice), but now I've decided I'm going to try to just eat oily fish, although maybe 2 or 3 times a week, obviously sticking to the most sustainable varieties (so probably just mackerel, herring and sardines).

I buy tins of mackerel in tomato sauce, and have it on toast in the morning. It's mostly replaced my usual bacon butty, and even the occasional FEB.

 

[Aladdin]

My 80 yt old dad sat down to an Aberdeen Angus steak with mushrooms and onions and home made chips this evening...

After he finished eating, he sat back with a big smile on his face and said, "that was absolutely delicious...better than any restaurant ". It literally gave him some joy.
If I handed him a plate of veg he would probably cry.

I've been trying to make meals that are healthy and tasty. My parents are not able to eat loads of anything.... So I try to get as much nourishment into them in their dinner..as they dont eat much.

So we are at the stage where we have:

One day a week = red meat
Two days = chicken.
Two days = omelette/ quiche ot stir fry with or without any meat....depends what's in the fridge.
One day vegetarian = either pasta or salad or lentils/beans or veg burgers.
One day = fish

The meal they love the most is steak. We don't have it often but a cousin dropped out 12 steaks a month ago. They can eat all of it. It's full of protein which they both need for their muscles. It really is filling si you don't over eat. And they just love it.

I did say to my dad this evening that we should only eat steak occasionally. He said that anyone doing hard physical work would need a meat and two veg dinner.
Then he said he would rather go fast of a heart attack and enjoy his steak every now and then than linger.

Sorry...gone a bit off topic

 

[Poot]

There isn't much I miss but I must admit I did enjoy a smoked mackerel, and I think they probably are good for you.

 

[Flavour]

I buy tins of mackerel in tomato sauce, and have it on toast in the morning. It's mostly replaced my usual bacon butty, and even the occasional FEB.

As a vocal critic of the meat industry on this thread and elsewhere I would like to concede that tinned mackerel is boss, and I also eat it fairly regularly.

e2a: in brine or au naturel though, not sure how i feel about it sitting in that sauce for ages

 

[Saul Goodman]

As a vocal critic of the meat industry on this thread and elsewhere I would like to concede that tinned mackerel is boss, and I also eat it fairly regularly.

e2a: in brine or au naturel though, not sure how i feel about it sitting in that sauce for ages

I also buy it in sunflower oil, as the cats prefer it that way.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

2. Regarding animal welfare:
Clearly, issues of free range/battery, but also realism about how embedded and intertwined our animal-product-consuming systems are. As funky monks was keen to point out, the dairy industry and the beef industry are aspects of the same industry. Whether you eat free range or barn-kept chickens, male chicks still get put through the shredder. Regarding transport and slaughter, what levels of knowledge or control can we have over these?

Re knowledge, there is ample evidence that transport and slaughter are routinely horrific, see e.g. 'Data released by food watchdog reveals incidences of chickens being boiled alive and animals suffocating or freezing to death in trucks' FSA: 4,000 major breaches of animal welfare laws at UK abattoirs in two years

At the very least we have the control not to pay for these things to happen, those of us not trapped in food poverty and who have access to supermarkets at any rate. The answer is right under your nose, LBJ.

 

[Hollis]

As a vocal critic of the meat industry on this thread and elsewhere I would like to concede that tinned mackerel is boss, and I also eat it fairly regularly.

e2a: in brine or au naturel though, not sure how i feel about it sitting in that sauce for ages

The last 15 months I seem to have settled into a Pescatarian+ diet with no dairy.

My consumption of tinned mackerel has massively increased - I would recommend the Morrisons korma or bbq sauce versions...

I would still like to become 100% vegan, but i'm a lazy bastard, and there is only so much of the vegan junk food I can eat.

 

[David Clapson]

One person not having a child reduces carbon emissions as much as 53 people switching to a plant-based diet:

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[T & P]

One person not having a child reduces carbon emissions as much as 53 people switching to a plant-based diet:

From Subscribe to read | Financial Times

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I've been saying this for ages in various environmental discussions, but alas, accusations of eugenicism are seldom far behind.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

One person not having a child reduces carbon emissions as much as 53 people switching to a plant-based diet:

From Subscribe to read | Financial Times

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Problem with that is what is it actually proposing? That we all stop reproducing so that the human species dies out (after a period of social collapse as the population ages)? If not, then you have to accept that it's totally reasonable for every individual to have at least two children.

'I'm doing my bit for the planet by not having children' is total bollocks. Your pension will be paid for some day by the work of other people's children. Having a couple of children and endeavouring to give them the very best start in life is doing something positive for 'the planet'.

 

[ddraig]

Both can be done (if you want) of course

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Your pension will be paid for some day by the work of other people's children.

Why?

 

[David Clapson]

Problem with that is what is it actually proposing? That we all stop reproducing so that the human species dies out (after a period of social collapse as the population ages)? If not, then you have to accept that it's totally reasonable for every individual to have at least two children.

'I'm doing my bit for the planet by not having children' is total bollocks. Your pension will be paid for some day by the work of other people's children. Having a couple of children and endeavouring to give them the very best start in life is doing something positive for 'the planet'.

What a crazy response.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Why?

What do you mean why? Once you're a pensioner, you're no longer working. How the hell else will you get stuff done for you? Your pension only has value if people are still working to create that value and repay your 'iou'.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What a crazy response.

I think it's a crazy proposal. People with children put a huge amount of time, energy and resources into their children. Hence a carbon footprint. I'm sure there are childless people who put the same amount of time, energy and resources into helping other people, but I'm equally sure that they're in a minority.

 

[Yossarian]

'I'm doing my bit for the planet by not having children' is total bollocks.

Yep, it's the standard cop-out for people reluctant to make any lifestyle changes - the time when action is needed is now, not decades down the line when someone's hypothetical children would have been creating hypothetical emissions.

I'm surprised we don't see more only children saying they don't need to worry about emissions because there would have been twice as much pollution if their parents had another kid.

 

[David Clapson]

That depends how much you paid into the pot before you retired.

I think you need a lie down.