Johnny Vodka
The Abominable Scotsman
I had to cut out salmon because of salmon farms, then wild salmon (which I thought was okay) when I found out it's endangered.
Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth
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I had to cut out salmon because of salmon farms, then wild salmon (which I thought was okay) when I found out it's endangered.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Not sure you're particularly reading people very closely if you think there is much 'pro-meat fanaticism' or there are 'anti-vegetarians' on this thread. The only poster who's even close to that description is Saul Goodman, who's clearly taking the piss.
The vast majority of the others who have posted that they eat meat and would like to continue doing so have expressed various concerns about how we need to change things. Plus of course there are reactions to the more extreme or ill-informed anti-meat statements. The fact-free pronouncements on this thread have generally come from only one 'side'.
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
There has been plenty
And there are a determined group of gleeful 'anti-vegetarians' and contrarians as well as the odd individual popping in for a dig
You yourself have posted fact free pronouncements and then not even responded when called on it, pompous attempt at rewriting the "discussion"
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
That doesn’t excuse his shit
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
littlebabyjesus is the worst on here tbh, certainly the most tiresome and full of himself, congratulating himself for eating offal
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
That would be you and Jeff.
I'm sure most people here are opposed to factory farming of animals, but we can't discuss this when the debate inevitably degrades to the usual "MURDERER!!!" Level.
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
Nah, i'm mostly defending myself and replying to bullshit, where have I "popped in for a dig"
Who's shouting "MURDERER!!!"??
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yep. It could be an interesting discussion, working out how things can be changed. I've tried to steer things that way, but it can't be done.
Anyhow, I'm out.
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
"debate not going my way and called out again, i'm off"
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
There are loads of reasonable vegheads and vegans on the boards. They just don't want to be associated with the rumbaba faction who dominate this thread. Even they think some of this lot are a couple of lentils short of a nut roast.
maomao
普費斯
What have you got against rum babas?
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Cor, they're ace aren't they? That's got me wanting one. Or two.
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
Just make sure you don’t get one that’s been intensively reared
WouldBe
Dislicksick
Ok. I said my memory was shit. It wasn't on this thread it was on the milk thread.
I would hardly call roaming free over the hillsides as "disgusting conditions" would you?
So thanks for proving your memory is worse than mine. Doesn't that concern you?
WouldBe
Dislicksick
That would be a ram Baba.
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
So I didn't say what you claimed and wasn't "rightly take the piss out of"!
Thanks for confirming, apology time then
And how is my memory worse than yours? I knew I hadn't posted what you claimed
And maybe it would be better for you and people you falsely accuse if you checked before making strange accusations
Just concerned for you of course
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
I've been virtualy vegan most of my life, primarily for ethical reasons. When away from home I admit that I sometimes eat dairy produce, but never touch battery eggs. The environmental advantages are an added bonus, as are the better health argument. Now over 60, I'm a lot fitter than most people of my age, not even had a cold for years, never get headaches, and I can still run faster than the average teenager!
editor
hiraethified
Who has been shouting "MURDERER!!!" recently? Anyone?
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
Most recent?
Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth
More unspeakable horrors from the meat trade: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/feb/24/cattle-stranded-at-sea-for-two-months-are-likely-dead-or-suffering-hell
www.urban75.net
Johnny Vodka
The Abominable Scotsman
Most recent?
Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth
More unspeakable horrors from the meat trade: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/feb/24/cattle-stranded-at-sea-for-two-months-are-likely-dead-or-suffering-hell
How is linking to a factual story the same as shouting "murderer"?
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
The use of phrases like "torture farms" is exactly the same.
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
It’s quite correct though in that context
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
I see lots of fish. Not a single torture.
Johnny Vodka
The Abominable Scotsman
Do you think fish crowded in like that are happy and healthy?
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
Have a look at the other side of the tank. It's empty. The fish are doing what fish do, they swarm to wherever the food is. For all I know, they may be no more crowded than the fish in a regular aquarium in someone's house.
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
What fish? The article is about cattle stranded on a ship
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
That's not a great comparison tbh. Who's to say that keeping fish in an aquarium isn't also cruel.
There are ways to measure these things, primarily by measuring the levels of stress hormones, which are known to operate in a very similar way among fish and other animals. This paper outlines one proposed way to do this.
Stress Response System in the Fish Skin—Welfare Measures Revisited
Without having seen the results (appears there aren't many yet), my bet would be that when these tests are carried out, they will find significantly raised levels of stress hormones in farmed fish.
The overall health of the fish as indicated by the quality of the meat is also relevant. Again, work wrt distress seems pretty provisional on this. It's only surprisingly recently that it's become widely accepted that fish even have the ability to suffer. Then there is the fact that the meat itself is generally fattier and less nutritious than wild-caught fish, which is another indicator of a life not-so-well-lived. (I'm using the word meat to include fish here - I don't see any good reason not to place all animal flesh in the same category, in fact I see only good reasons to use just one category.)
Farmed fish welfare: stress, post-mortem muscle metabolism, and stress-related meat quality changes
comparison of farmed vs wild caught salmon nutrition-wise:
Wild vs Farmed Salmon: Which Type of Salmon Is Healthier?
This is a pity for me. I wish the evidence pointed a different way, but I can't see fish farms as anything other than a non-starter in terms of animal welfare. Sustainable levels of wild-caught fishing are much more humane, imo - just being one of the many predators most of these fish have. But there of course the operative word is 'sustainable'.
And that's before addressing the issue of the input of feed into the fish farms, or issues to do with diseases and how these not only infect the farmed fish but also leak into the wider ocean ecosystem. Some things, like oysters or mussels, ok, they're creatures that don't move around anyway. But free-swimming fish in a watery cage? That's factory farming really, isn't it, with all the accompanying issues to do with health, welfare and sustainability.
editor
hiraethified
No it's not. If you are unable to support your claims, just admit it rather than trying to lie and bluff your way out.
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