Atos Medicals - Questions, Answers and Support

[Libertad]

None of his conditions are listed at all, which means he's unlikely to see a doctor, and highly likely to see a nurse or a physio. CFS/ME and Fibromyalgia are contested diagnoses regardless of the fact that they have severe real-life consequences, so referring to symptoms of the conditions/their effects works well. As for osteo-arthritis, it's so common it wouldn't surprise me if they have nurses assessing people who have it.

The trusty old route of making it about observed symptoms, past consultant-grade medical opinion and whatever can be dug up in terms of medication effects etc is probably going to be necessary, as an assessment based on input only from a WCA is going to screw even a deader into going back to work, sadly.

Well that's cheered me up no end. I get what you're saying though VP.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well that's cheered me up no end. I get what you're saying though VP.

Basically I had to whack them over the head with the effects, and that was easier knowing that everything I said in there was consonant with what I'd said on the ESA50 a couple of months before.
As CFS/ME and Fibro are contested diagnoses though, that may work in your favour at the "decision-maker" stage, as they are included in their "Bumper Book of Medical Facts for the Feeble-Minded" that they refer to.
Try to make sure you emphasise over and over, every time the dipshit asks you a question, exactly how you're affected, and exactly how that activity has knock-on effects on other activities. bear in mind, you're doing it for posterity (i.e. the recording) as much as for the HCP. If you get knocked back, and the recording contradicts the input on the LIMA software, tribunals take a dim view.
DO speak slowly and clearly. Go at your pace, not theirs. They will try and rush you.
DO make vocally plain any pain you're feeling.
DO be careful what you say - they'll jump vigorously on any perceived contradictions between what you say, and what they have on record, even though in your case that record will be well out-of-date, and not at all reflective of your current condition.

Give 'em enough rope, and they'll hang themselves.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Something that is still bothering me is that with CFS/ME and Fibromyalgia and Osteo-arthritis shouldn't it be a neurologist that examines me? equationgirl ?
The little mind games that they will play are going to be bad enough but I am worried that if I'm being examined by someone who doesn't know what they're doing that all their prodding is going to hurt like hell and that I'm liable to lash out at them. Thinking about it, I will lash out. That's not going to go down very well is it? Without a witness there with me that's not going to look good.

I'll welcome others commenting - my experience in this direction is a couple of years old, but I don't think there's anything to say you can't take someone with you to the 'medical' if you want to.

Last time I'm aware this came up on this thread, general opinion is that it tends to make the 'health care professional' a bit more careful about taking the piss and / or lying about what you said.

And if the someone looks reasonably outwardly respectable (I didn't go as far as suit, but dressed as if I was on the way to the office when I went with friend - they weren't to know I was in a 'freelance' phase) then they may be even less inclined to take the piss.

Is there anyone you could take with you?

If you would find assistance getting there / support (physical or emotional) necessary in view of your health condition, then the fact that you needed some assistance ought to count in your favour. (polite questions about how you got there / how you would have reacted if the thing had been postponed at short notice etc aren't 'polite questions' - they are part of the assessment.

Likewise, while I don't think that outright advocacy on the part of a friend is expected, I did remind friend during his 'medical' of one or two health related incidents he'd forgotten about / didn't think were worth mentioning, and I wasn't told to STFU.

Hope all goes well for you.

 

[equationgirl]

Yes. They will likely ask how your journey to the centre was. Don't just say 'fine', if it was stressful, painful or made you anxious say so. Don't leap out of your seat enthusiastically when called.

There's also anecdotal evidence about the assessor's judging people on their appearance so be comfortable, and not too well made up. Don't get your hair done specially

They seem to take the view that if you have made the effort to look presentable you are fit to work.

 

[Libertad]

Thanks Puddy_Tat . I'll cancel my hair appointment equationgirl

 

[passenger]

you guys are good ,lol you have turned me into a mine law student
with this stuff, reading it gives me hope and at least i know i have done all
i can do with the help i get from here.
*know all sing the national anthem*

 

[Libertad]

I've read the following in the Benefits and Work guides and other places:

"You can only score points for the mental health activities if the difficulties
you have with them are caused by a mental health condition or learning difficulty, or are a direct result of treatment by a registered medical practitioner for that condition."

Also:

"The mental function descriptors only apply if the claimant's incapability is the direct result of a specific mental illness or disablement. For example, a claimant with back pain cannot score points for a lack of mental function if s/he cannot concentrate because of his/her back pain."

So what about my anxiety, depression and mood swings? What about my problems with short-term memory, loss of concentration and attention span? These are all symptoms of my CFS/ME and Fibromyalgia and fucking real enough.
Will the health care professional be interested in all this stuff?

 

[toggle]

I've read the following in the Benefits and Work guides and other places:



Also:


So what about my anxiety, depression and mood swings? What about my problems with short-term memory, loss of concentration and attention span? These are all symptoms of my CFS/ME and Fibromyalgia and fucking real enough.
Will the health care professional be interested in all this stuff?

if you have a diagnosis of these conditions then the symptoms of them should be taken into account. because they are listed as known symptoms of the conditions.

it's about relating each symptom back to a diagnosed condition or a side effect of prescribed medication.


I do know that himself's appeal weren't able to take into account his absence seizures, because he hadn't discussed them with the doctor at that point. I don't think he knew how many he was having until they asked me to describe them and their frequency. The doctor on the tribunal advised him to see his own doctor quite urgently with a very worried look on his face. despite this, they couldn't include these in their ruling because there was no papertrail.

 

[toggle]

you guys are good ,lol you have turned me into a mine law student
with this stuff, reading it gives me hope and at least i know i have done all
i can do with the help i get from here.
*know all sing the national anthem*

woman I volunteer with was talking about how she would fill in her paperwork. said she didn't know anyonre who could start making head or tail of any of it. so i started talking about some of the categories she would score points for off the top of my head. she's going to give me a shout when her forms come through.

 

[Greebo]

Nice work, toggle. Nobody should have to face those forms alone, not even VP does.

 

[yardbird]

I just stopped someone from sending off a form and got them to get another.
Fill in the form/s as if it's your worst day and never say "sometimes" because that is taken as you can!!

 

[passenger]

i got a massive bundle of paper work back from the DWP
well everything to do with my case and the reasons they don`t want me
to get the level of pip i need such ass the atos lady had dropped a bit of paper
on the floor and i picked it up, so i must be ok i looked happy and calm
so i cant be depressed they really are clutching at straws and lying and
they asked the tribunal to not grant me an appeal.

 

[yardbird]

In the assessments I politely requested the medical professional's name and qualifications.
They don't like that.

 

[Libertad]

In the assessments I politely requested the medical professional's name and qualifications.
They don't like that.

I've been lucky enough to get someone from DPAC to accompany me to the medical and that'll be the first thing that they ask.

 

[tufty79]

^^ bloody excellent news x

 

[wtfftw]

That is great.



I've just had my medical. Complete with long wait and then being made to wait again afterwards. Presumably to see if I keep up the charade? Funnily enough I had no problems continuing to be in pain and weeping.

Anyway. Done now. It can fuck off.

 

[ViolentPanda]

if you have a diagnosis of these conditions then the symptoms of them should be taken into account. because they are listed as known symptoms of the conditions.

it's about relating each symptom back to a diagnosed condition or a side effect of prescribed medication.

Or, as appears to be often the case, an unfortunate synergy between a diagnosed condition and a side-effect of prescribed medication (something my neuro was happy to point out with regard to my medications affecting cognitive function).

I do know that himself's appeal weren't able to take into account his absence seizures, because he hadn't discussed them with the doctor at that point. I don't think he knew how many he was having until they asked me to describe them and their frequency. The doctor on the tribunal advised him to see his own doctor quite urgently with a very worried look on his face. despite this, they couldn't include these in their ruling because there was no papertrail.

And the "papertrail" is all-important nowadays - it literally determines whether or not your case will be heard. I explained this to my GP when she remarked on the upsurge in DWP-related work - "you've got more shit because your patients realise they've got to report every little change in their conditions, in order to keep their records current, and because the DWP require proof of those changes, such as the forms they send you for ESA and PIP claimants". She grasped pretty much immediately that the same thing was fuelling the upsurge in requests for referrals to specialists from patients who'd previously been happy to bimble along just receiving treatment from their GP.

 

[ViolentPanda]

In the assessments I politely requested the medical professional's name and qualifications.
They don't like that.

Nope, because it exposes the fact that over 3/4s of their "healthcare professionals" aren't doctors, and that less than half of HCPs are nurses.

 

[tufty79]

I've just had my medical. Complete with long wait and then being made to wait again afterwards. Presumably to see if I keep up the charade? Funnily enough I had no problems continuing to be in pain and weeping.

Anyway. Done now. It can fuck off.

Ugh - fuckers
Hope you're feeling a bit better - rest up well, and hope you get the results you need x

 

[ViolentPanda]

That is great.



I've just had my medical. Complete with long wait and then being made to wait again afterwards. Presumably to see if I keep up the charade? Funnily enough I had no problems continuing to be in pain and weeping.

Anyway. Done now. It can fuck off.

Pretty sure that when Greebo and I left the assessment centre in Balham last year, someone watched me walk from the centre about 100m to the nearest cab office. Must have been fun for them, watching someone shuffle along with two sticks at the speed of a stoned snail, pausing about every 20 steps.

 

[Libertad]

That is great.



I've just had my medical. Complete with long wait and then being made to wait again afterwards. Presumably to see if I keep up the charade? Funnily enough I had no problems continuing to be in pain and weeping.

Anyway. Done now. It can fuck off.

Bastards the lot of them. Hope you can get some sort of peace and quiet after this. Well battled for getting through it all.

 

[yardbird]

My sister in law who is a retired GP suggested to me that it's legal grey area when you are being asked about your medical condition.
She says that if you are about to divulge confidential medical info then the medical pro MUST give you their name and qualifications if you ask.
Interesting.....

 

[yardbird]

SiL is good value.
I was going to have a home assessment with requested recording.
I also said partly because of my problems I shall be bringing my SiL who is a GP.
Also that a friend would take notes to help my memory lapses.
Friend is a court stenographer so is confident that she would accurate and would sign notes.
After they had this info they chickened out.
" It is not needed that the assessment be carried out at this time"

 

[tufty79]

^^ that is my favourite atos story ever

 

[friendofdorothy]

i got a massive bundle of paper work back from the DWP
well everything to do with my case and the reasons they don`t want me
to get the level of pip i need such ass the atos lady had dropped a bit of paper
on the floor and i picked it up, so i must be ok i looked happy and calm
so i cant be depressed they really are clutching at straws and lying and
the tribunal to not grant me an appeal.

I've heard of dropping things to see if you can pick them up is a delibrate trick they do. It's almost a reflex when something is dropped to reach for it, what ever your condition - I see very old ladies go to pick up things where I work all the time - even when they are half blind and very unsteady on their feet - I'm always having to stop them by offering to do it for them.

Also note if examiners ask if you roll your own fags - it might be noted as a sign of dexterity.

Pretty sure that when Greebo and I left the assessment centre in Balham last year, someone watched me walk from the centre about 100m to the nearest cab office. Must have been fun for them, watching someone shuffle along with two sticks at the speed of a stoned snail, pausing about every 20 steps.

They really are bastards. I know they watched us arrive when we went for the' medical'. The examiner 'just happened' to be in reception and greeted us and made 'small talk' about our journey - that I engaged in as a helper but not the person being assessed (who was too busy sweating/freaking out and trying to hold it together anyway) Then they made us wait in a near empty waiting room even though we were on time (that freaks her out too, she was in a right state by the time the assessment 'started')
All of it, everything, is part of the test I understand.

 

[toggle]

Or, as appears to be often the case, an unfortunate synergy between a diagnosed condition and a side-effect of prescribed medication (something my neuro was happy to point out with regard to my medications affecting cognitive function).



And the "papertrail" is all-important nowadays - it literally determines whether or not your case will be heard. I explained this to my GP when she remarked on the upsurge in DWP-related work - "you've got more shit because your patients realise they've got to report every little change in their conditions, in order to keep their records current, and because the DWP require proof of those changes, such as the forms they send you for ESA and PIP claimants". She grasped pretty much immediately that the same thing was fuelling the upsurge in requests for referrals to specialists from patients who'd previously been happy to bimble along just receiving treatment from their GP.

and it is obviously dependent on the gp whether they are willing and able to deal with this. i can understand the frustration that leads to some refusing to change the way they handle thigns to suit the DWP, to waste their time filling in endless forms and make referals that aren't always clinically necessary. but as much as i can sympathise, that really fucks over the patients.

When himself did get the referal for the seizures, they weren't actually diagnosable to a specific cause, so the specialist actually asked whether a diagnosis letter stating they were happening and saying they were probably stress related was sufficient, and his question wasn't just because of the open endedness of his conclusions, but also because of the need for papertrails.

eta: and when I asked if i needed to pay for a letter from our GP as proof of illness for a uni deadline extension, they didn't know how to charge me and couldn't be bothered to find out.

 

[toggle]

^^ bloody excellent news x

he's done well. I know who the bloke is and looked him up. I haven't met him, but facebook is telling me we have a bunch of very, very sound mutual friends. i may well have to pop into the next meeting that his group hold to say hi. cause they meet in the pub where my cat is a regular.

^^ that is my favourite atos story ever

we got a similar result from a letter sent from himself's GP.

 

[ViolentPanda]

They really are bastards. I know they watched us arrive when we went for the' medical'. The examiner 'just happened' to be in reception and greeted us and made 'small talk' about our journey - that I engaged in as a helper but not the person being assessed (who was too busy sweating/freaking out and trying to hold it together anyway) Then they made us wait in a near empty waiting room even though we were on time (that freaks her out too, she was in a right state by the time the assessment 'started')
All of it, everything, is part of the test I understand.

Back when I was suffering panic attacks and agoraphobia (late '90s), I was fortunate that I was on Incapacity Benefit, and that (at that time) they actually only employed actual members of the RCGP to examine claimants, so they usually took the excessive sweating, bug-eyes, hammering heart and shortness of breath as positive signs of a problem (think I was also helped by having to use sticks, too!). Now, especially with ESA, they just seem to think you've been to bloody stage school!

 

[equationgirl]

ViolentPanda toggle passenger got a letter from the dwp saying they would ask the tribunal to dismiss his appeal, and sent him a bundle of papers outlining the reasons for the decisions they made.

Does he need to do anything next, or just wait for the tribunal date to be sent through?

 

[Libertad]

(((passenger)))