Fun as the idea might be, IMHO you just don't need the hassle of needlessly being taken to court.
Atos Medicals - Questions, Answers and Support
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stuff_it
Too skool for cool
TBF if you tell them you can operate a 16 channel desk they will declare you fit anyway.
WouldBe
Dislicksick
Just write them a cheque for 11p each week.But equally, you could pay by sending the 1p pieces taped to a piece of card. No point in ruynning up arrears
You have no idea how many sleepless hours I've spent fantasising about what I'd do to extremely unhelpful bureaucrats.
I need to fill in the form for ESA and have noticed that compared to the same time last year they have removed some of the questions from the mental health section. For example the ones on interacting with other people they have reduced to one question instead of two. I presume this is a way of reducing the points that you can get from your form.
Anyway, my question is whether the are likely to compare answers to the previous year? So for example if I answer "often" where the previous year I said "sometimes" is this likely to work against me??
I am currently having treatment and am seeing a shrink under the local health service so it is possible for me to write slightly different answers compared to what I wrote last year (as might be expected given more issues arise in the treatment), but I have a feeling they might give me a harder time if my answers are different from the last time.
Anyway, my question is whether the are likely to compare answers to the previous year? So for example if I answer "often" where the previous year I said "sometimes" is this likely to work against me??
I am currently having treatment and am seeing a shrink under the local health service so it is possible for me to write slightly different answers compared to what I wrote last year (as might be expected given more issues arise in the treatment), but I have a feeling they might give me a harder time if my answers are different from the last time.
audiotech
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Kate Hillier
Member
The last time I had one the guy in no uncertain terms informed me that notetaking was discouraged in the appointment.
I have just submitted an ESA50 /3/11 and so await my dreaded Appointment.
I have just submitted an ESA50 /3/11 and so await my dreaded Appointment.
Well this time you can make it clear that you taking notes or you'll nut 'em!
Request recording also.
Kate Hillier
Member
I have an Iphone app FIRE Professional Recorder.*tempted to do it on the sly as I can just put iphone in pocket!!*
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
Kate - see the latest info on recordings from yardbird's earlier post
How can they justify spending public money on these basically political goals, the DWP has been a law unto itself for sometime, i suspect soon they will develop tactics to undermine the campaigners themselves...
This is why more 'able bodied' employed people, etc are needed to support them...
culder
Active Member
I can't be sure, but I don't get the impression that they refer to previous forms. (To be honest, after my own experience, I'm not convinced they refer very much to the current one, either!) I don't think you need to worry too much about this - if your situation has deteriorated, then of course your answers would be different, wouldn't they?
As for the different form - tell me about it! It's disgraceful.It took me weeks to figure out where to mention things that weren't specifically asked about.
There was a guide going about on how to fill in the last form, but with the sections being changed and questions being amended I'm not sure what to say. They must be doing it so there are less points to be awarded. I suppose my situation has been worse to some extent. I have nothing to lose by saying so I suppose.
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
They have completely changed the way points are awarded, and this time round it's much harder to score points. If you are worse then last time around, answer the questions as best you can with that in mind.
audiotech
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Now, I'm not doubting that the way points are awarded has changed, probably due to criticisms from all quarters, including the select committee looking at this and a host of others, some who've stated that as it has been, it was 'unfit for purpose'. I was last night watching Grayling being grilled on the system in place by the select committee, however, could you give an example of why you think it's much harder to score points this time around? Genuine question.
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
I did a bit of research on the questionnaire and the ATOS software being used during these assessments back in January to see if it would help anybody going through this on urban. Here is a post I made earlier on the thread:
'The software appears to be a closely guarded secret of the DWP (even though the taxpayer will have paid many millions towards it, it's owned by Atos). Basically the links - including the manual - show the reasons why everyone is getting really wrong reports.
It's the way the software works - it 'simplifies' the assessment by guiding the assessor through drop-down menu choices. If additional information is provided in text boxes, the software disregards it. At the end of the assessment, a report is generated. The software uses to drop down menu choices to generate simple sentences which can then supposedly be used to make an informed decision about benefits.
The problem is, a lot of report generated doesn't make any sense. For example, claimants have produced reports with sentences like 'the claimant has a mild upper limb amputation, but has seen a specialist about this condition' or 'the claimant can walk for 1 minute'.
I thought the links might provide ways to fight the DWP at appeal stage. I hope they are useful.'
So, the software basically stacks the points system against everyone.
There's a lot more about this on a website called 'The abc of ESA', I posted about this site earlier as well: 'On the ABC of ESA website they discuss why it is so hard to get a reasonable assessment. There's been a lot of changes to the scoring used compared to the previous system, and in my opinion it's so heavily weighted towards passing people fit for work no matter what that is has become virtually useless. It may be worth bearing this in mind when completing the form.
Here's the ABC of ESA site: http://www.abcofesa.co.uk/board/index.php
Best of luck.'
culder
Active Member
I'm hoping this link works - it's an official DWP guide to the scoring. You need to go down to page 17 for the scores and descriptors.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consu...disabled/documents/digitalasset/dg_177366.pdf
http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consu...disabled/documents/digitalasset/dg_177366.pdf
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
The link works
The link works
Thanks for this. It seems that the points are then not dependent on the check boxes, which seem vague in any case - and have been made even more vague this year.
Taking this one as an example. Last year it read
This year the same question reads.
So the above is an example where they have gone for a series of choices that will confuse the person answering so they are unable to be specific. How does "sometimes" compare to "it varies"??
"It varies" could be more often than "sometimes" but there is no way of knowing that?? It seems the only answer is to be very specific and word your answers to get the maximum points. It's OK for us on the internet, but they are designing these forms for people to fill in at home who might not have this kind of information. It is deliberately deceptive and vague.
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
Exactly! The form is deliberately biased to ensure a low score, in my opinion. Also, be aware that at the actual assessment, the assessor will be choosing from a set of drop down menus -for example the answer you give could be 'it varies', and that should be what the assessor chooses from the menu choices - but if you say 'I have bad days most of the time' to explain your answer, the assessor can enter that in a text box too.
However, when the software compiles the report, all the information in the text boxes will be ignored. It's the way they've designed the software.
So, the software spits out a report at the end, based on some simple sentences, so it's entirely possible your report could read ' the claimant can manage to start and plan tasks for 10 minutes a day'. It gives out nonsense, which is helpful to nobody.
The DWP should be ashamed of themselves for what they're putting people through, and for the nonsense they've wasted taxpayers money on.
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
I've just had a look in the handbook link to see if I can match the scoring to the question you posted and this is the best I can find (scoring doesn't seem to match the questions, which is another issue 
):
This is what I found:
13. Initiating and completing personal action (which means planning, organisation, problem solving, prioritising or switching tasks).
Descriptor Points
(a) Cannot, due to impaired mental function, reliably initiate or complete at least 2 sequential personal actions. 15
(b) Cannot, due to impaired mental function, reliably initiate or complete at least 2 personal actions for the majority of the time. 9
(c) Frequently cannot, due to impaired mental function, reliably initiate or complete at least 2 personal actions. 6
(d) None of the above apply 0
So from the scoring, the options appear to match the old question, not the new one.
):This is what I found:
13. Initiating and completing personal action (which means planning, organisation, problem solving, prioritising or switching tasks).
Descriptor Points
(a) Cannot, due to impaired mental function, reliably initiate or complete at least 2 sequential personal actions. 15
(b) Cannot, due to impaired mental function, reliably initiate or complete at least 2 personal actions for the majority of the time. 9
(c) Frequently cannot, due to impaired mental function, reliably initiate or complete at least 2 personal actions. 6
(d) None of the above apply 0
So from the scoring, the options appear to match the old question, not the new one.
So the guidelines are outdated as well. They do have June 2011 on them, but that is not good enough. Giving incorrect info on the DWP website is only more dishonest, and shows they don't care. Oh, well. Maybe I'll have to go to appeal this time, and my case is convincing. I hate to think what other people have to go through. Still, it depends on the doctor you get as well.
extra dry
Happy to be here
Anyway, my question is whether the are likely to compare answers to the previous year?
If they 'the company' is as bad and twisted in it operating procedures, I would say numbers have been agreed, maybe a percentage, this year 4% cut in numbers, the old, the infirm, the people who slagged off the boos, next year 6% the unstable, the people they just don't want around. The share holders would of had these meetings months ago. I would not worry too much what answers you put really. If the company/firm is going to let you find other pursuits then it is a fight to stay in.
If they 'the company' is as bad and twisted in it operating procedures, I would say numbers have been agreed, maybe a percentage, this year 4% cut in numbers, the old, the infirm, the people who slagged off the boos, next year 6% the unstable, the people they just don't want around. The share holders would of had these meetings months ago. I would not worry too much what answers you put really.
If the company/firm is going to let you find other pursuits then it is a fight to stay in.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Not unheard-of, though, although thankfully not yet standard practice this side of the pond.
What makes me laugh is that such tactics indicate a belief on the part of the DWP that protesters aren't imaginative enough to find a way round it.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
You think that they're not already trying that on by giving succour to ATOS?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Well, they do retain copies and refer to previous forms when it suits them, say when they're trying to nail you at a tribunal, and you've slightly contradicted yourself on the new form over what was on the preceding form, but not when it favours the claimant, no.
E2A: The bit on the form that asks for "any other details" is the bit I use as a reference to all the pages of additional printed information I send along with the form. That way I get to describe my conditions in excrutiatingly pedantic detail, so that they can't claim that I didn't mention something, or so that they can go purely by what their so-called "medical assessment" tells them.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Or, if anyone can afford it, become a paid-up member (about £20 a year) of the Benefits and Work website, and download a copy of one of their ESA form-filling guides. They're top-notch, and compiled from advice from welfare and legal professionals who scrutinise the legislation and the legal precedents.
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